ANIMAL HEALTH AND WELFARE STAKEHOLDERS GROUP
FOOT AND MOUTH DISEASE MEETING
2PM, 27 SEPTEMBER 2007,
SCOTTISH PARLIAMENT COMMITTEE ROOM 3, EDINBURGH
MINUTES
Present
First Minister+
Cabinet Secretary for Rural Affairs and Environment (Chair)
Charles Milne CVO Scotland
Ian Anderson SG
Gordon Struth SG
David Henderson-Howat SG
Simon Girling AH
Derick McIntosh AH
Uel Morton QMS
Keith Redpath QMS
Stuart Ashworth QMS
John Bell SBCA
Jim McLaren NFUS
Spencer Dawson* MHS
Nigel Miller NFUS
Sarah Anderson* NFUS
Becky Shaw* SCF
Jim Thomson NSA
George Milne NSA
David Whiteford SFQC
Phil Flanders RHA
David Buxton Moredun
Allan Jess SAMW
Alistair Donaldson SAMW
Brian Pack ANM Group
Jack Clark IAAS
Andrew Wright IAAS
Mike Flynn SSPCA
Helen O'Neill COSLA
Hamish McBean NBA
Ian Mathers* NBA
* By teleconference
+ For part of meeting
Introduction
The Cabinet Secretary welcomed stakeholders to the meeting, saying that it had had to take place in the Scottish Parliament due to his parliamentary commitments. He outlined the meeting's agenda and asked Charles Milne to give an update on the disease situation.
Disease Situation
Charles Milne began by saying he had to update on a number of disease diseases. On foot and mouth disease, he said that there now were seven infected premises in Surrey, with a large number of negated report cases including two in Scotland the previous day. There were five ongoing investigations with none causing particular concern.
On bluetongue, he said that four animals had tested positive for the virus on three separate premises, but that an outbreak would not be confirmed until it was known that virus was circulating within GB. All four animals have been or will be slaughtered, though this would not be the response to a major outbreak and was only undertaken to minimise the risk of spread of disease. Maps had been produced showing the risk of midge plumes from Europe, which would be available after the meeting. There were 10 investigations ongoing, with five awaiting laboratory samples.
On avian influenza, Charles Milne said that the investigation near Bromsgrove had been negated.
Questions
Nigel Miller asked if bluetongue was not confirmed as circulating would restrictions be removed. Charles Milne said that until disease was confirmed restrictions only applied to the premises on which a positive animal had been identified. However, Defra had imposed a bluetongue temporary area to prevent movements out to the rest of the country.
Alistair Donaldson asked about the surveillance arrangements for foot and mouth disease. Charles Milne responded that in the 3km Protection Zone holdings were notified and visited, serology was undertaken on sheep and clinical inspection for other susceptible animals. In the 10 km Surveillance Zone there was clinical inspection of animals, and serology was required before the zone could be lifted. There was concern that the disease was not being recognised by keepers of cattle, with the animals on the seventh infected premises not having been handled in many years. All animals that had been moved out of the zones are traced, with Scotland going further and conducting tracings on animals moving from within 50 km of Pirbright. The surveillance programme was under constant review.
David Buxton asked how intensive the surveillance on bluetongue was and whether all animals were inspected sampled. Charles Milne said that Defra had worked with meteorologists to assess risk and had drawn a 10km ring around the first infected premises, starting surveillance in the south and working anti-clockwise. He could not confirm whether all animals were inspected or sampled. All five animals had been bovine, and as we know that only one in 10 infected cattle show clinical signs there was the possibility of sub-clinical cases being present.
Phil Flanders asked about the 139 movements mentioned at the last meeting where the receiving farm had not registered the movement; Charles Milne responded that tracings on these were ongoing. Uel Morton asked if the foot and mouth tracings had been completed; Charles Milne said all direct and indirect tracings from the 50 km ring around Pirbright had been completed, adding that the European Commission (EC) had highly commended this approach. On bluetongue a similar exercise was underway, and at this stage he could confirm that there were no direct movements from the highest risk areas, with the nearest movement being one from Northamptonshire.
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Control Measures
The Cabinet Secretary asked Charles Milne to give an update on the disease control measures in Scotland. These were being kept under constant review, with new licences coming into force from midnight that night (0001 hrs on Friday 28 September):
- Multiple drop-offs of animals from the islands on the mainland, up to a maximum of three deliveries.
- Multiple collection of animals other than pigs, up to a maximum of three collections, in a movement to a slaughterhouse or collecting centre. (Multiple pick-up of pigs is already permitted).
In addition, following a successful meeting that morning with auctioneers slaughter markets would be permitted from Monday 1 October, provided there was no deterioration in the disease situation. This comes with the condition of veterinary attendance and is subject to strict cleansing and disinfecting requirements. Unless England had a similar licence, animals would not be able to be moved to these markets from England. Charles Milne stressed that it was essential that all sectors of the industry make every effort to control the disease, especially as we are under international scrutiny.
Sales of store and breeding animals could follow, without a firm date but once certain hurdles have been cleared. These were;
- Confidence in the observance of biosecurity measures. Local authorities and Animal Health agency staff had been asked to monitor and report back.
- Two incubation periods to pass from introduction of national movement ban.
- Complete tracing work out of Surrey - need to be confident that animals coming into Scotland were free of disease (e.g. indirect movements through Carlisle, Berwick).
This activity was of low risk, but very high consequence, so it would require assessment based on the three above grounds. Charles Milne hoped that he'd be able to give a firmer timescale shortly.
The Cabinet Secretary said that he hoped these relaxations would be helpful and recognised there was still a way to go yet.
Questions
Jim McLaren asked for clarification on the issue of the three drop-offs licence. Charles Milne replied that the islands are free of restrictions and these only apply when animals reach the mainland. The justification for limiting the drop-offs and pick-ups was that in the worst case scenario not more than two farms would be infected if the first hosted disease. Jim McLaren said that this would be impractical when transporting males, but Charles Milne said that it was only three days since the last infected premises, and while we could be relatively confident about that disease was not present in Scotland, they had to more than reasonably confident to move to high risk activities.
Jim McLaren said that his members had concerns about the 20 day standstill and the suspension of separation agreements. It was vital to get back the recognition of separation agreements, with only 1,600 to 1,800 in the country. He asked if they other farmers could be encouraged to apply to local authorities for separation agreements now. Charles Milne agreed with the last point, going on to say that he disagreed with the NFUS view of separation agreements in respect of their biosecurity, giving the example found in tracing work of animals going through six holdings in two to three days.
Alistair Donaldson welcomed the relaxations being announced, but said that smaller abattoirs were having a problem with the 24 hour kill rule. Jack Clark agreed with this point and asked if it could altered to 48 hours. Charles Milne said that this would be considered.
George Milne said he supported the NFUS view of separation agreements, especially as 12,000 rams should have changed hands in the past few weeks. He said that when sales resumed there would be a reluctance to buy rams when gimmers and ewes were being sold. Charles Milne sad he'd look at this problem.
Brian Pack said he was disappointed that there was no date for store and breeding markets and that this was long overdue. He said auctions were needed to set prices and get stock moving quickly. It had been two weeks since the resumption of the movement ban, and markets early next week could be too late; with the daily cost to business enormous, two days sooner would make a big difference. Sales had to be completed by mid-November at the latest. He asked the Cabinet Secretary to balance the veterinary risk against the certain economic cost, which the Cabinet Secretary was able to say that officials and he did so. He reminded stakeholders that the last case had been on Monday, but said he was very conscious of their situation. Brian Pack then said that he couldn't understand the difference in risk between multiple drop-offs from the islands and auctions. Charles Milne said that the worst case scenario of the island drop-offs was three infected premises, but markets would bring many people and animals in and out.
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Welfare
The Cabinet Secretary said that the Scottish Government had been working with industry on a sheep welfare scheme. The Scottish Government had been advised by the CVO, SSPCA and many others that there was a serious welfare problem unfolding. A proposed scheme had been drafted, informally consulted upon with industry, then a wider formal consultation had taken place. He hoped that a final decision on the proposal could be reached at the meeting.
He went on to say that he had met with EC officials the previous day in Brussels. There had been three principal reasons for the visit. One reason was that there was an Agriculture Council meeting taking place, in which he sat with the UK Minister Jonathon Shaw. At this the UK delegation had given a very brief update on the foot and mouth disease situation, and while the EC welcomed the steps the UK had taken they also expressed concerns. More importantly, the Scottish Government delegation went to discuss the welfare scheme and the potential re-opening of exports from Scotland. He sad he'd come back to exports later. On the welfare scheme, they had been informed that there were no state aid barriers to the proposed scheme; indeed, such a scenario was expressly permitted with the Member State allowed to develop the scheme themselves so long as there was no over-compensation and it was limited to smaller enterprises. The requirements were that the UK government had to submit the scheme, which the EC agreed to turn round quicker than the 10 days permitted. The UK permanent representative in Brussels, UKREP, said that they would present a scheme to the EC immediately they received it from the UK government.
The Cabinet Secretary then asked David Henderson-Howat to outline the scheme, saying that he recognised it wasn't ideal but that it was an emergency situation. The intention was to send it to Hilary Benn that evening.
David Henderson-Howat said that the scheme would be for light lambs only at £15 per head. This level had been set on the basis of market evidence and the requirement not to over-compensate, and only to compensate for animals with no market. Animals would go to collecting centres and on to slaughter, with a good geographical spread of collecting centres being sought. Representations had been made to extend to cast ewes and sows, which would be more difficult. The problem was seen as the 250,000 light lambs needing to be moved quickly and with no export market. The National Audit Office had criticised the 2001 scheme as being too wide.
The Cabinet Secretary then said that this should be seen in the context of further relaxations. It was a specific scheme to deal with specific problems. The chain of events would be that the scheme would be sent to the UK government with a request for them to fund as they have technical and moral responsibility. With this would be enclosed a letter signed by most of the organisations in the industry supporting the scheme. Ideally, the scheme could be at the EC on Friday evening, but this was outwith his control. Nonetheless, the Scottish Government would not allow a situation to arise where animals died on the hills.
On communications with UK governments, he said that Wales were keen on a similar scheme and we had been in touch with them throughout, and Defra had been informed at each step.
He then highlighted a number of issues. People had criticised the proposal as a waste, so it was important that the scheme was carefully presented. He made a plea to the industry to remains united with the Scottish Government, as we had been so far, as it would be enormously helpful in dealing with the UK government. This would not stop industry from making their case. On drivers' hours, he said that Ruth Kelly had responded the previous night to his most recent letter, and while this was a disappointing response the tone was different. He response to this had already been sent. Finally, he said that they had cross party support, with the Conservatives and Labour laying motions in the Scottish Parliament that day.
Jim McLaren thanked the Cabinet Secretary for his energy in pursuing the welfare scheme. He said that it would be difficult to sell to the public and NFUS had been recieveing calls about it being a waste. He said that it was important to explain the reasons, being that they cannot be shipped overseas due to the export ban and they cannot remain on the hill as they will starve, while also eating food intended for animals to remain, leading to further welfare problems. On the price, he said that it needed to be nearer to £20, and strongly urged a bolt-on for haulage costs, saying that a couple more pounds could make the scheme a flyer.
Charles Milne stressed that it was essential to note that this is a welfare scheme, not disposal or a cull. No-one wants this scheme but without it animals will starve on the hill.
George Milne added that the animals on the hills that would ordinarily not be were eating the winter feed of those to remain. He agreed that this scheme was a last resort, and fully supported NFUS calls for £2-£3 more for haulage.
Ian Anderson said that regarding using the produce, most of these animals would normally be dead by now anyway. With no exports allowed there was nowhere to send them.
Brian Pack said that he understood the producers' argument on a higher price, but said that £15 was justified for a welfare scheme and if the price were higher it could take in lambs for which there may otherwise be a market. He welcomed the speed and energy of developments, but was concerned that it was not extended to cast ewes in the same situation. He thought rather than 250,000 lambs at £15 it would be better to have 170,000 at that price and 150,000 ewes at £7. Cast ewes had recently been sold in Shetland for 50p, with the cost of transport to Aberdeen being £6 per animal.
Phil Flanders said that hauliers were having serious cash flow problems. £3,000 was needed per haulier to avoid being considered in "financial disrepute". Owner/drivers last year made £22,000 in August, this year it was £7,000. He asked who would pay the haulier in the scheme. David Henderson-Howat replied that the Scottish Government would tender for three things: collection centres, with haulage to abattoirs; abattoirs with haulage to renderers; and for rendering.
At this point the First Minister joined the discussion.
He began by saying that he had a close interest in these issues, and that he was running out of patience with those who have responsibilities for what (does he mena me!). He said that the latest refusal on drivers' hours was ridiculous, especially as it was not a financial matter but just common sense. He had had reports on the meetings with Defra and said that he wasn't surprised that the NFU had a different outlook as they were hundreds of miles further south. He hoped that the UK government would move soon on driver's hours, and said that this should have happened last week. The Scottish Government had been anticipating the crisis points in advance.
On welfare, the First Minister said there was no doubt that this was the responsibility of the UK government. They had both the fund, under the devolution settlement, and the moral obligation. If Scotland had to fund a scheme ourselves it would have to come out of a budget already allocated for something. That's why the pressure will be kept on Defra.
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He then told stakeholders that his first job had been as an agricultural economist in the Department of Agriculture and Fisheries for Scotland, assessing and forecasting sheep numbers. When he was there officials had a close understanding of farming. Things that had been said at COBRA meetings by UK government officials were incomprehensible to anyone who understands farming, and Defra and the Treasury did not appreciate the problems faced here. The First Minister also did not have confidence in Defra's disease response.
He hoped it was appreciated that the department, the Chief Veterinary Officer Scotland and the Cabinet Secretary were going beyond the devolution agreement to take responsibility from those unwilling to accept it.
To highlight the seriousness with which he takes the issue, he said that he had asked the Justice Secretary to explore the possibility of issuing an edict saying drivers would not be prosecuted for breaching the drivers' hours regulations. He also said while the Cabinet Secretary had been in Brussels a vote in the Scottish Parliament had been tied 60-60. They had asked Labour and the Liberal Democrats for someone to pair with the Cabinet Secretary while he was away and they had refused. Knowing this, they had still decided to send him to Brussels as it was more important.
On the welfare scheme he said that with the best will in the world it would not be possible to satisfy everyone. Pressure would be put on those to meet the responsibilities they have. The Scottish Government will take on board the points made and do everything possible. He assured stakeholders he wouldn't allow lambs to end up starving, adding that if he could not get those with responsibility to act, we would not be able to do everything.
The Cabinet Secretary thanked the First Minister for his comments.
Jim McLaren welcomed the First Minister's personal interest and looked forward to his continued support, as this was the early stages of seeking money from Defra. He said that the NFUS visit to Brussels backed up what the Scottish Government delegation had found, and added that the rules said that Member States were allowed to compensate at 100% for loss of income due to failure of quarantine obligations.
Brian Pack said that while he and others requested changes to the scheme, this should not hold up its presentation to Defra as the matter was of such urgency.
David Whiteford agreed with the above point and made a request for sows to be added to the scheme, saying that almost 100% of sows usually go for export, about 1,000 sows were backed up in the system and with the main outlet being in Essex there were further animal disease complications.
The Cabinet Secretary said he took these points on board.
Exports
On exports, the Cabinet Secretary said that they had had a very worthwhile bilateral meeting with the EC. They had met DG SANCO and the head vet Bernard Van Goethem, who advise the Commissioner, who in turn advises SCOFCAH. Charles Milne had presented on what Scotland had done so far, and as the UK government would present to SCOFCAH he wanted the EC to understand Scotland's position. EC officials were nervous as they had previously recommended lifting restrictions, only for foot and mouth disease to return. But they had a warm response to Scotland's case and he felt they had made an impact.
Charles Milne agreed that the meeting had been very positive. He had shown them a presentation similar to the one given to stakeholders in August, including the EPIC data and the starburst analysis of ram sales, and included information on the work undertaken in September. Bernard Van Goethan said they had made a good case and asked for it to be forwarded via UK CVO to all EU CVOs. They recognised Scotland's relaxations had been made on the basis of science and were credible, encouraging continuation. The completion of all tracing work out of the zones in Surrey would be very important. Charles Milne added that this was a very good start to dialogue with the EC and the EC encouraged the Scottish Government to keep in touch on this and future issues. He finished by saying that the Director General had said that if there were customers in Europe waiting for Scottish produce they should make this known to the Member States and the EC, to act as a pull on re-opening exports, so stakeholders could work through their trade organisations on this.
The Cabinet Secretary said that this was an emergency meeting and they were grateful for EC officials agreeing to meet. He said that he hoped the case for regionalisation had been reinforced and opened the meeting for questions.
Questions
Brian Pack asked about the delineation of GB into risk areas, and Charles Milne replied that this would be based on tracings from the zones, on which Defra were progressing with immediacy.
Alistair Donaldson said they had been working with international trade organisations already, and asked about the FVO mission to the UK. The Cabinet secretary said that they had not had much feedback yet except that the FVO were requesting more information.
John Bell asked if there was the option of Scotland only coming out of the risk area as a fallback to most of GB coming out; Charles Milne said that it was though the priority was to get as much of GB out as possible.
Nigel Miller asked that if this fallback position was viable would it be jeopardised by animals flowing north from England. Charles Milne said that he didn't want to act precipitately, but there was a need to protect our position.
Ian Anderson said that if stakeholders were experiencing difficulties with products they believed were be permitted for export they should contact Mary Bradley.
The Cabinet secretary wound up the meting by thanking stakeholders for coming, reminding them of the First Minister's comments. The next few days would be critical on a number of fronts so a meting the next week, probably after Tuesday, would be useful. He ended by calling again for unity, especially on welfare.
Scottish Government Rural Directorate
28 September 2007
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