The Scottish Government

Some years ago the Conservative Prime Minister Ted Heath was asked by Robin Day on National TV what he thought of Scotland seeking Independance. Will his reply be shown on tv during the days before the next election ??

#126. Davie - Cheshire
Tuesday, September 25, 2007 17:15

Independence, you ask: what does it mean?

I'd say:
It means a lot to many people.
It means different things to as many different people.

It means it not being embarrassing or offensive to fly the national flag.

It means not having to stand silent and be offended while the national anthem is played.

It means not having to apologise for our country's or our countrymen’s behaviour abroad.

It means not having to put up with patronising sports reporters/commentators telling us how 'we' won a world cup etc. ad nausium, and willfully ignoring or worse, Scotland.

It means not saying: 'if only' we were the same as other nations.

It means not watching TV weather reports telling us: what a lovely day it's going to be, the same as 'we've' been having all week, but up in Scotland it has been miserable all week and is likely to stay that way.

It means not taking the begging bowl to Downing Street to ask for dole money that is rightfully ours to keep our country running, and humbly being sorry for having the temerity to please ask for some more.

It means not keeping WMDs, which morally can never be used anyway.

It means not being forced into building any more power stations producing nuclear waste that will be toxic to life for many generations into the future.

It means not being involved with invasions of other people’s countries, illegal or otherwise, just to help our selves to their natural resources.

It means being responsible for raising the money we spend for ourselves.

It means being proud of our nation and our people, wherever they come from.

It means celebrating our true heritage, not discovering it by chance or accepting propaganda intended to stunt our ambition.

It means using our individual and collective talents and characters that have shaped the world, to do as good a job of building and shaping Scotland.

To only involve ourself as a nation in other folks’ business only when they specifically request our aid and assistance.

To have no axe to grind with any or all of the other ‘Home Nations’, but do not wish our country to be run by any of them, especially as an afterthought to any other.

To want our elected representatives to have only one object and that to make Scots and Scotland all that they can be and as happy in Scotland as possible, without having to play 'Tail End Charlie' for anyone else.

It means being Scottish not the poor man's Englishman,ie British.

In response to Stan Grodynski - Thanks for the compliment Stan. You too present your argument in an eloquent fashion! It just goes to show what can happen when you make the most of a good British education.

From reading your last rebuttal I get the impression that you believe that the current constitutional settlement benefits me in some way and that my defence of the union is merely a defence of my own personal interests. This is something which my good friend Gavin Thompson touched on in an earlier thread. Let me make it clear therefore that I do not benefit any more or any less than the average Scot. My defence of the union is based on my pride in Britain, our shared culture and history and the naivety of the nationalist argument. You know the one I’m talking about, no? It’s the one that says that independence is some magical cure, a cure which will solve all of Scotland's socio-economic ills.

Now you say that many Scots are looking towards a brighter future. This I do not deny. But can I ask you to paint me this brighter picture. Can you guarantee that every Scotsman and women would live more rewarding and fulfilling lives in a post-independent Scotland? Would we all be much better off? Would there be no social or economic hurdles to overcome? In essence what is the SNP's grand plan? Because if you say that we are all going to have an extra few quid in our pockets, that a nationalist government would provide world class services, no one would be homeless or some other noble and idealistic sentiment then please warn me beforehand so that I can get my sick bag ready.

Now you also say that Scotland has little say on specifically Scottish issues. But can I ask you to cast you mind back to 1999 when the Scottish people were asked if they wanted a Parliament to be established and equipped with power to govern over the most important aspects of their lives. The Scottish people backed the Yes campaign and now we have a parliament with extensive powers, powers which those in the constitutional reform campaigns of the 1980s and early 90s could only have dreamed of. I put it to you therefore that your nationalism has coloured your judgment and that you don’t fully appreciate the power and influence that Holyrood actually has.

Now you ask what changes I would make within the Union which would allow Scotland to move off in a new direction. Well in recent weeks I have warmed to the idea of Scotland receiving more favourable returns from North Sea oil and gas and if we would have to tweak some powers then so be it. But don’t be fooled into thinking that I am somehow moving towards the SNP's way of thinking. We are after all talking about Britain's oil, not just Scotland's.

Anyway I’ve got to go but to Gavin Thompson I say don’t think I’ve forgotten what you’ve said. When I get the chance I’ll post a thread detailing just how naive your last comments were. And I tell you this now. Before I am finished with you you will be a card-carrying, flag-waving unionist who loves everything read, white and blue and who watches the Queens speech every year at Christmas.

I have Scottish blood on both sides of my family; I have been to Scotland more than a dozen times; I support independence for Scotland; and I think Scotland should be free of England and English influence forever.

In Response to Graig Cook, Glasgow #79

Off topic to the debate on Independence but I feel that some people need a little shake into reality.

"do you really believe that we are just seen as a nation of drunken, kilt lifting entertainers? Come on man! "

Actually after several years of living with the Northern Irish and the English and Welsh I've had considerably more experience (than I would had wished to) of being the 'token Scotsman'. I find it quite distressing that the majority of people, from various classes and backgrounds seem to retain this idea that I am person from a nation of head butting, whisky fuelled, haggis scoffing, tree throwing, kilt lifting people and hate all the English due to what happened hundreds of years before I was even thought of. I have quite a lot of friends/family here in England, but if people live in the delusion that the Scottish are taken seriously, please wake up and smell the perfume, there is a world beyond your own back garden.

I think Independent Scotland will assist in helping people take notice that Scotland as a nation are proud of themselves and want to carve their own future as a nation and that we want to be taken seriously. There are risks for both for and against becoming independent and there are a lot of grey areas on both sides which both sides want to leave to the side and don't want to discuss. In all honesty, I do not think that EU or converting to the Euro should be tied into the draft/vote for independence and should be separate issues voted on accordingly.
First see if the people want to be Independent, then ensure the infrastructure in the independent Scotland works.
Then (and not before) put it to the people of Scotland if they wish to join the EU and or convert to the Euro. Tying these issues together makes for difficult decisions with no one fully realising any trade-offs or compromises made or one issue like the EU/Euro being used as a bandwagon for manoeuvring voters views in any attempt to prevent separation of Scotland from the UK.

Before any presumptions are made I am not wanting a independent Scotland for the Scottish. I want an independent Scotland for the people of Scotland.

God I do think the whole subject is somewhat wearisome!
Let me make it clear that I am extremely proud to be a Scot and during my 48 years in the diaspora I have never ceased to put forward Scotlands position and to guard against the British being put in Englands basket.

Let us not forget that britishness is a northern trait and characteristic and has little to do with London.

Why the h... do you all want to become part of some Scottish equivalent of (with respect) Slovenia, Lithuania or Estonia. Proud nations all!
But with no say in any matters of importance, whether in Europe or even within their own smaller regions.
Indeed we enjoy so many advantages over these countries. While being a very important part of the UK we do enjoy many national things of our own. We have our own rights of representation in many fields, such as football, rugby etc.
Why do you really believe that going it alone will make life north of the border better than it is today. Scotland is an important part of the United Kingdom, no less so than England. Both together have a much stronger pull in the World than either on there own. NBo part of the UK will be able to remain on the UN Security Council. The Scottish Prime Minister in the London Parliament,the representative of my birthplace, Kirkcaldy is able to speak out loudly on World isssues. I am sorry to say that Mr Salmon will never be in such a position.
I cannot understand the fear shown in Britain, by Scots and English alike, of the European Union. The future will show that the bigger political unit will be the seat of power. If Europe should split into Scottish sized blocks, then we would be confronted with a contininent made up of 450-500 States - who wants to be in such a Babel like confederation.
Yes, I support more Scottish rights and further delegation of tax powers to the regions, but please leave the UK intact and within the European Union.
sincerly
Alistair Hill

Ref: 128 below...

We have been inept, doesn't mean to say we will continue to be and it really doesn't mean that you have to have "Independence" to achieve that.

I also really resent Nationalists hiding behind Imperialism (Scots - historically a huge part and benificiary of...) and Britishness lets just pour the loch of cold water it deserves on all of that and consider talking about the United Kingdom instead.

Scotland's potential is not being met you are so right..but the biggest force preventing Scotland moving forward is NOT the union...its the people. A flag or a passport ain't gonna sort that...do you REALLY think Scotland's shameful drug problem for example, is down to us not being independent...what could we NOT have done about that do date as a nation?

Break the Union and you we can prosper like our neighbours. Stay in and if you had the belief and strength that we have as much right to the benefits of the Union and its acts and deeds as any Ulsterman; Welshman, Cumbrian, Geordie, Cornishman or Mancunian, then we can prosper even more.

I dont buy that any Scot in another part of the UK is calling any other Scot stupid. "Independence asap"...you've had it since you reached the age of 16.

To all those saying we should not have our independence ... why are we particularly inept at running our own affairs? Why is the right to self-determination dependent on where you are from? If independence has worked wonders for the surrounding nations (which it clearly has - look at Norway's rise from a Swedish dependency), why is (resource rich) Scotland less capable? Are we to be regarded much as anyone with a dark skin tone was in the past - natural "natives" designed to be governed by a far off imperial capital?

Scotland's potential is not being met - the biggest force preventing Scotland moving forward is the union ... break the union and we can prosper like our neighbours.

Also, notice the able Scots (now "Brits") who have made it to the top of the Westminster greasy pole telling us that they can be personally successful, but we as a nation are to A) stupid, B) poor or C) wee to prosper collectively. I dont buy it. Independence asap.

The Union must stay, it would devestate Scotland as a country if it were to go independant.

My friend big jock knows this as well and would like to make it fully aware that he knew the effects of this.

1: "Independence" - what does that mean?

If it means the power to make the decisions that will make our lives better then we already have that both as individuals and citizens. Scots have consistantly under-utilised the ability of the Parliament to date and the SNP are clearly only using their powers to fog the real issues facing this part of the UK, Europe and the World by talking about "Independence" and meaningless arguements and postures around flags, "government not executive" non-Britishness whilst the things that hurt Scotland really, go untackled.

I think that Labour also underplayed the power of the parliament so that Scotland is in a position where it things if it sows loads and loads of saltires on its team strips and sticks loads of them on their cars and sing Flower of Scotland, all will be well.

You ARE independent - and you should chose to reject the squandering politics of the nationalists and any other party infavour of someone identifying and tackling the real problems....

2: Independence in Europe?

How's that for an oxymoron!!!!!

3: Who says it's all down to you anyway?

Hello!!!! I'm one of thousands of Scots who have chosen to work in another part of the UK or even the EU -why shouldn't we be involved in this decision?

4:True Independence

That's where you know that you don't need all this blue and white bollocks to be yourselves - you are free - free to accept or reject. The people of this island have so much more in common than we have against. In the context of history, this current generation that will influence the future of Scotland have been brought up on a diet of symbolism, selfism and Braveheart - it's what SNP thrive on....the naive vote.