The Scottish Government

Did anyone know that half of scotland (up to glasgow) used to be run by the "Kingdom of Orkney"? Scotland only was a buffer between them and England.

Would you suggest that Orkney take back its rightful claims? After all their wasn't a treaty for peace after the invasion.

#310. Malcolm - Glasgow
Monday, December 10, 2007 12:25

Sorry, I believe you are mistaken.

As has been pointed out more than once during this national conversation:
The Treaty of Union 1707 had to be ratified by Acts of both the Scottish and English parliaments before it could be signed.

England at that time had already absorbed Wales and Ireland centuries earlier to effectively become part of a Greater England.
I believe that it was the intention from south of the border that 'North Britain' would similarly be subsumed.

When the time comes to dissolve the Treaty of Union, then Scotland and (Greater)England will revert to their previous 'Union of the Crowns' status.

All treaties and conventions undertaken by the signatories to the Treaty of Union 1707 during their period of shared sovereignty will apply equally to both signatory states, eg Maastricht, the Geneva Convention, UN Conventions on Human Rights, etc, etc,..

ie Scotland and England, (or whatever England subsequently chooses to call herself) will have equal standing as regards membership of the EU.

Under what circumstances would anyone envisage either country being expelled from the European Union? given that Brussels is now casting its eyes across the Med to North Africa for possible future expansion.

#312. Ellis Sims - Gosport
Monday, December 10, 2007 22:14

As Scotland as far south as Largs was once part of the Kingdom of Norway will you also argue to give similar consideration to claims by Norway to the West Coast of Scotland, those islands such as Skye, the Hebrides, etc, the North Atlantic, the North Sea and their islands?

In a similar vein do you think perhaps Denmark therefore might expect her share of the bounty of the southern north sea,(back dated?) given her previous occupation of the Danelaw?

Did you know that the SNP gave the Northern Isles a clear field to claim their independence by not putting up candidates against local independence candidates?

Those local prospective candidates eventually managed to come in 4th behind the Liberal, Labour and even the Tory candidates.

Sorry to burst your bubble.

Don't worry livilion from Livingston!

There was no bubble to burst! :)

I was pointing out how this country has evolved for the past 1000 years, and about that Orkney island crap the SNP sold everyone. They knew that those people are not stupid enough to become independent, its like saying the Isle of Wight could be economically viable enough to become independent.

He wanted to make a point of it, with a small island. I bet he wouldn't offer the Highlands independence.

Anyway, why does the SNP and other nationalist parties concern themselves with the Independence stuff when they could be making Devolution work within the frameworks of Great Britain

315. Ellis Sims - Gosport
I hope the SNP are doing both - making devolution work as best as possible, while going for Independence. Test and push the limits of devolution, using the powers wisely, seeking more, while highlighting the areas that can't be improved without full independence.

That's the positive way, and the only way IMHO people would vote for independence. It also almost forces the other political parties to get behind the drive, in time, in some ways the same as the drive for devolution last millennium.

10. livilion - livingston
Saturday, August 25, 2007 16:13

Just tuned into this debate and was interested in the extracts Livilion took from The Adam Smith Institute’s briefing entitled Independent Scotland: The Road to Riches. Interested enough to read it, and even more interested in what he did not extract from the briefing.

In essence, the growth figures stated achievable for an independent Scotland are based on the assumption that: the Scottish government will reduce taxes; reduce public expenditure; legislate to provide a more business friendly economy and that over the same period, the government in England will not do any of these!

This "arc of prosperity" salmond keeps on going on about, its not like its the Unions fault that it can't happen.

Its Labour, Labour are once again innept.

People should realise that Alex Salmond and his SNP are going after a fly with a bazooka. The only reason they got dominance within the Scottish Parliament is because Scottish citizens were fed up with Labour and not ready to give the Tories a go once more. The SNP didn't even get a majority, yet they proclaim it like a landslide.

They are a Sham, they aren't even looking into the long term health of Scotland instead tapping into narrow minded nationalism as a cure to all problems.

#313. livilion - livingston

What do you believe I'm mistaken about?

Hi Gavin

Sorry it has taken me so long to reply to your last message. I had read it ages ago and then forgot all about it. Nonetheless, I thought that I would respond just in case you are under the impression that you have converted me to your ‘noble’ cause.

I accept that your last comments were not intended as a personal attack – I just find it hard to understand why Euro scepticism translates into Nazism but never mind – it’s Christmas so tis the season and all that.

Before I go on can I remind you that I have never said I was Euro sceptic – I believe I have said that I support the EU but not full integration (something which I suspect we both agree on). All I did was point out the findings of opinion polls which show that most Scots harbour a mistrust of the EU.

It would appear then that you are jumping to conclusions. So let me remind you that Britishness does not equate with Euro scepticism and being British does not make you anti-European.

Again you are wrong when you say that most Scots are Brito-sceptic. If this true then there would be a majority in favour of independence. The SNP are popular just now because they have done the little things well. But when it comes to the big, unpopular decisions they will favour less well. There are 3 and a half years to go until the next election and at some point the SNP will come unstuck. All government’s become tainted in office. Just wait and see how Brito-sceptic Scots are then.

You are correct that I would not be completely opposed to the transfer of more powers. As a Scotsman this could be of benefit to me and others. But as a British man I do not support independence and therefore the extension of all reserved powers.

Again your them an us mentality shines through when you say this way we wouldn’t be ‘politically dependent on England’. Scotland now has influence over the majority of its domestic affairs so this old nationalist rant no longer holds true in the way it once did. Even you must accept that this political dependence has been significantly eroded since 1999.

You go onto mention ‘the British is best mantra’ but what exactly is this? Can you give me some current examples? Also who are the British ruling elite? Is it Gordon and his cronies in number 10 or is it Lizzie round the corner in the Palace?

With regards to our history let me say once more that the Empire did not overshadowed a sense of Scottishness. Both Scottishness and Britishness coexisted. Scots fought in the British Army in their kilts and would go into battle to the sound of bagpipes blaring in the background. Thousands of punters would turn up to watch Scotland take on England at football or rugby and they would celebrate passionately when their team beat the Auld enemy. These are just small examples but they are relevant nonetheless.

Finally, the referendum. I do believe that the SNP should do what it is elected to do, that is run Scotland. But I also recognise that if there was a vote today the SNP would lose. Take of your tartan specks for a moment and you’ll see that I am correct.

You say that the SNP is also there to look after Scotland’s interests so can I assume that the SNP’s interests are also Scotland’s interest? You know independence and all that.

I’ll leave you by saying once again that it would be a waste to through away 300 years of history, common values and beliefs.

Cheers

As an employee of the Royal Navy, I do not believe that an independant Scotland would benefit anybody. The Armed Forces protect our nation from many threats in modern soceity. Where will a population of approximately 5 million people create such a great force of troops. Britain is by far the greatest force in the world. We are so strategic and full of tactics when engaged in war. Unlike the U.S who seem to find that dropping bombs will be the best method.
Nevertheless, why break this force up, as a constant threat of terrorism will still be part of every day life with or without the Union.
I also feel Scotland will be another Ireland, always relying on the E.U to fund everthing they do. Our north sea oils will not last us much longer due to increased demand of it.
I do agree with 320. Craig Cook in that the SNP would lose if a vote was to be done today and it would be a very big waste of our history if we split from the union.