The Scottish Government

Scots who pull out their calculators on mention of their national independence are a sad lot.
Can you imagine English people asking with ashen faces "How could we cope without the Scots?". I don't think so.

This may seem strange to current thinking but hear me out.
There is a misconception only an independent Scotland must apply to join the EU if the Union dissolves. However, historically Scotland and England signed a Treaty Of Union as EQUAL partners. They each then passed an Act Of Union in their own parliaments to form the political union of the United Kingdom. Wales was only part of this new union having been effectively under total English rule since the 1300s. All Ireland came in under the same banner but neither country signed the original Treaty of Union that formed the United Kingdom of Great Britain. The acts of Union that eventually brought Northern Ireland and Wales into the United Kingdom of Great Britain & Northern Ireland came later. These treaties were signed with the equal partnership then called The United Kingdom of Great Britain that had only the two EQUAL partners, Scotland and England.

Thus, when Scotland and England dissolve that union the Welsh and Northern Irish Acts of Union must become void as the United Kingdom of Great Britain they joined was now dissolved. Thus the United Kingdom of Great Britain & Northern Ireland that signed up to the EU is also no more. So the idea the remnant of The United Kingdom of Great Britain & Northern Ireland after Scots independence forms a rump UK is utter nonsense. All four countries must re-apply to join the EU and England, Scotland, Wales and Northern Ireland must re-negotiate if they wish any form of union with any of the now dissolved former UK members. Perhaps none of them would wish to re-join England and could form a treaty with Scotland instead. There could be several permutations. (Anyone fancy a Celtic Tiger of Scotland, Wales, The Free State, Wales and Northern Ireland?)

To Mike King #275.
Spell out your hint of putting quotes round, "Independence from England".
Do you mean to indicate that the independence is from, "The UK of GB & NI", or the real fact that only Scotland and England actually signed the original Treaty Of Union? There were also two Acts of Union. One from the English Parliament and one from the Scottish Parliament. Thus both Wales and Northern Ireland signed with a entity that would be disolved and thus Scotland has as much right to claim their signatures as England has.

I think Scotland should be independent and a member of the EU. I think Scotland should control its own affairs, not least because we could get rid of the blight of Trident on our soil. 18 years of Tory rule from Westminster convinced me of this. This could well happen again in Scotland. We are hampered from making Scotland the way we want it by decisions made in Westminster. Let us be like other nations and control our own future, including striving to combat climate change, and aiming for social and environmental justice for everyone on this planet, rather than following blindly what the USA wants us to do in world affairs. Lets be a small country that contributes to world peace, rather than part of the posturing UK which fancies itself as a big player on the world stage, and has a ridiculously high "defence" budget.

To Robert Peffers - I put quote marks around the phrase "independent" Scotland because I believe Scotland is already part of an independent country known as Great Britain.

I also have to question the use of the word "independent" by the SNP, who would take Scotland out of the Union & immidiately subrograte it into the EU.

You would then exchange rule from London (where Scots currently run the UK government) for rule from Brussels.

I simply don't see how that makes Scotland independent.

Re: 301. ruth - west lothian
Wednesday, December 5, 2007 19:45

Sorry I misunderstood you Ruth; I was talking about political mandates not consultation.

In that sense yes its good the SNP are having this consultation & I apologise for misrepresenting you.

Mike

There is something sad in admitting that a relationship of 300 years should be dissolved with so little regret on either side. Speaking as a beneficiary of a Scottish University education I do regret that the opportunities for an English person to be educated in Scotland or Scot to enter an English University will be greatly diminished however I suppose there are good reasons for divorce.

From the Scottish point of view, gaining the accountability of their leaders and denying them the age old excuse for incompetence and under-achieving that blaming Westminster allowed, has to be a good thing. Also it is undoubtedly true that nationhood confers more rights and opportunities than being a region of another nation. It is hard to imagine that the North East of Scotland would have remained a backwater if Scotland had been independent at the height of the oil revenues though it will be interesting to see how the Highlands fare in the future when independence leads to the inevitable situation that all real power is vested in the Edinburgh-Glasgow axis on exactly the same population basis that currently works in England's favour.

From the English point of view it is going to lead to interesting times: most depressing is the likely long period of Tory government however it cannot be in our long-term interest to attempt to retain political control where it is unwelcome and I hope we can contain the nannying instinct sufficiently to let the tide of affairs take its course.

The English are currently having to face reforming our sense of national identity which is quite scary. The sense of being British is disappearing and it feels as though this is happening quite fast. I only hope it doesn't go somewhere nasty as nationalism is never a good thing and as a basis for government it could be catastrophic.

For that reason although Scotland may need the SNP to achieve independence I hope you ditch them immediately afterwards!

To Bob Peffers

You highlight an interesting legal point, which would give judges headaches. My quibble though is with Wales. Wales has been legally subjugated as a principality of the Kingdom of England since Henry VIII, who also proclaimed himself King of Ireland. After the Kingdom of England and the Kingdom of Scotland divorce, Wales (at least for a nanosecond!) would revert to being part of the Kingdom of England.
Northern Ireland is more complicated. As Unionists argue that the Kingdom of Ireland remains in the Six North Counties, they would remain tied to the Crown, if not necessarily the government at Westminster.
In reality, of course, all the three nations involved, well (two and a half, I can't see NI as a nation, sorry) would have to go to their own people via referendum to decide their future. Personally, I hope for Independence for Wales, Scotland and England, with NI going back to Eire.
Down With The Union!

Bob Peffers #303

Wales didn't sign the Treaty of Union because it had been annexed by England (Statute of Rhuddlan, 1284). The act of union which created the United Kingdom of Great Britain and Ireland was signed in 1800.

Neither Wales nor Northern Ireland have signed acts of union with the Kingdom of Great Britain.

After independence, England and Wales would certainly remain a single entity (for a time, at least). Whether that entity would include Northern Ireland isn't so clear.

As far as the EU goes, what remains of the UK would continue as a member (Germany didn't have to leave and reapply after reunification, and I can't imagine, say, Spain being kicked out if Catalunya becomes independent), and Scotland would also remain a memeber as it would inherit the UK's treaty obligations.

Many people seem to think independance in europe is swapping one master for another. I see it differently as at the minute we have no say in europe as we have to go through London whereas being an independant european state we will be able to interact directly with Brussels. Also i'd much rather have a Scottish / EU passport than have to carry a British/Eu passport even though i do not feel British in the slightest.
But whatever we decide be it independant in europe or independant outwith it will still be better than to stay in a union that is well past its sell buy date. Alba gu Brath.