The Scottish Government

For Mike King
In your post 426 you said nobody could explain the independence in Europe policy. Here goes, in case you hadn't noticed we are already in the EU but at the minute we have to go through London to talk/negotiate with Brussels. With independence we could cut out the middle man, clear enough for you? Oh and another thing i would prefer an EU passport that said nationality SCOTTISH, where as just now my passport says british which is something completely foreign to me.

437. Mike King
I appreciate first that your posting wasn't racist, and was (I presume) meant more in the sense that "if Scots can't manage Britain, how can they manage Scotland!". It's a good question, though there are many would say Gordon Brown was a good chancellor for Britain, and could be a good PM for Britain also. It depends on viewpoint. It's the same question that could be posed about the Bank of England's control and recent handling of interest rates - it may be good for fighting inflation, but is it good for the economy - it may be good for some (presumably those who have), but is it good for those who have not? For me inflation is good, as it reduces the real value of debts. And interest hikes are bad as my debt, errr, sorry, borrowing, costs more to maintain!

Can Scots manage Scotland? Why not? At least the management will be relevant to Scotland in particular, rather than Britain in general.

The feeling of Britishness is an issue that will not be solved in an independent Scotland until a couple of generations have come - and passed away. Though I want independence for Scotland, I still have some pride and feeling for Britain.

Having read well over a thousand books about WWII in my more leisurely years - and a fair few about WWI particularly naval engagements - and Biggles of course, I am also of the generation that had a father and uncles that fought in the second world war, and to whose efforts I owe my freedom - freedom that I can use to want and work for further "freedom". And I would want whatever government we have for an independent Scotland to work hard for a few years to minimise the damage to Britain that withdrawal of Scotland could make.

What I would say though is that in my experience the younger generation directly down from mine has little knowledge of WWII, and less feeling in itself of being British. That wrench of independence will be less for them, though that does not neccessarily mean they would vote for it.

And with the "constitution" of the EU being sneaked through without us having a chance to say "yea" or "nay" in a referendum, increasingly I guess Westminster - and Holyrood - will become irrelevant. We will all be Europeans!?

439. Kev - Edinburgh
Tuesday, February 12, 2008 10:29

First I lacked maturity, now I'm a racist!

Thanks for raising the intellectual tone of this debate Kev!

If you read my posts you will see I've already said I personally have no problem with Scots in the UK govt. but that’s because I'm a Unionist.

I refer to them purely as a way of suggesting that maybe the view that everything bad in Scotland is to do with not being your own masters is a little one sided.

Just to be clear for you Kev, by that I mean if Scotland provides the UK’s Prime Minister then you must have some power in the UK.

On thing (finally) you are correct on is in saying it doesn’t matter what I think as the people of Scotland will decide but surely that’s not a reason for me not to be heard?

Or maybe you think this forum should only allow posts of the same view as you?

Whether you like it or not Kev, what you & others propose for Scotland will destroy my country, Great Britain.

Name calling isn’t going to stop me arguing against that!

Ask any self-respecting individual, whether Irish,American,Norwegien,Dutch,Indian,vietnamese etc.

'Do you prefer to be master in your own house?'

The answer will surley be an emphatic 'Yes'.

The Irish kicked out the English.
The Norwegians showed Sweden the door.
The Dutch chased the Spaniards back to where they came from.
The Americans defeated the English forces at Yorktown.
Not to forget the indians who humbled the British Empire in 1947.
likewise the vietnamese who humiliated the most powerful country in the world, The USA.

Yet we scots, who built the English Empire and got little credit for doing so. Had an not insignificant role in the events leading up to the American war of independance, dither and procastinate.

Kev

We live in a democratic society and thus every one of us has a choice. I know when Burns night is but I choose not to celebrate it! Why? Because it doesn’t appeal to me!

You can blame London all you want but it’s about time you started looking closer to home. Stop 100 people on the street and ask them if they celebrate Burns night or St. Andrews day and 90% will say no. Ask them why and they’ll say their too busy, it doesn’t appeal or who’s Burns?

You also seem really annoyed about your holidays. But are u suggesting that we turn our backs on 300 years of history just so we can sleep in late 2 or 3 extra days a year?

Oh, and I believe Scottish banks have reassured us that our notes are safe!

Cheers

If we are to consider going down the road of Independence, or even enhanced devolution, we must abandon any ideas tinged with racism and develop and expansive idea about who "the people" are in the equation. We must move away from ideas which incorporate anti-Englishness (or anti-anything else for that matter), and develop and concept of "Scotland's people" which not only feels inclusive to citizens in Scotland who were not born here, but which is so appeaing that others want to become part of it. Independence or devolution plus is essentially a lifestyle option. With it, we would be choosing to order our affairs in a different way to the UK model. Those different priorities, coupled with the existing attractions of living in Scotland, should make becoming one of Scotland's People an appealing proposition. Scotland will need more skills, more investment, a larger workforce, and a community which is exciting and diverse rather than parochial and inward looking. We should be encouraging people to move here not from Europe and overseas, but we should also seek to attract people from other parts of Britain who see Scotland as the most attractive lifestyle option in the UK. So being one of Scotland's People cant just be about accent, race
and birth. It must be inclusive enought to feel welcoming and enlightened. The elements of Scottish Culture which hold the sense of national identity together must be presented as something which you can buy into as much or as little as you like, but which are not held as barriers to entry of the People of Scotland club. Thousands of people from England and other places have already adopted Scotland as their hoome because they like the place and its people. If we move towards independence, we must make sure these people still feel they have full-membership, and that we dont create an Exodus of adopted-Scots who suddenly feel the country is for native-Scots only.

So lets start working on makeing Scotland and inclusive and welcomin place. Lets have a plan to create more Scots. And lets make sure that there are not different degrees of membership of Scotland determined by race.

433 Mike,

I think I see were your coming from, and its not a very nice view and borders on being Racist's what is wrong with the Prime Minister/Chancellor being Scottish?.
Surely in your eyes he's british after all GB is all for the union flag.Is it just the fact he is Scottish or would you be so quick to de-cry him if he was say Welsh or a women or gay?, on a side note your union also doesn't allow the PM to be a Roman Catholic, another good reason for Scotland to go it alone.

Also why is there a disproportionately high number of Scottish Mp's? do you also keep count on say the ratio to male female MP's or their sexual preference?
If it bothers you that much then you should be all for Scotland breaking your union, after all Scotland in the main rejects your particular right wing brand of conservatism.
Independence is the correct choice for Scotland, you still haven't once answered the basic point that the gap between rich and poor is at its highest and the national wage in England is 27% higher than Scotland, our biggest city is the sickest in Europe.
At the end of the day Mike it will matter little what you think, as it will be up to the people of Scotland to decide our future, and I for one am quietly confident and excited at the chance of improving our lot.

question;how would the nation retain independence while in the eu?
answer;in the exact wasy that other independent nations do in these times.
with the population in the nation less than 5 million the people would actually have a stronger voice than in the uk
if any writer thinks that the eu doesnt listen i say london is deaf.
an newly independent nation may have the right to withdraw from the eu i dont recall that edinburgh agreed to join for eternity.

RE: 436. Dave Eastabrook

Thanks for your comments Dave; whilst I can assure you many of us living north of London (e.g. Birmingham) also suffer from London's dominance I appreciate it must rankle more the further from London one is.

As for "By and large though, Scotland is a socialist country, with islands and ferries, a stripped industrial and manufacturing sector, and a lot of poverty" - England too has a "stripped industrial & manufacturing sector & a lot of poverty"

But is that really about the Union?

Scotland has returned a majority of Labour (socialist)MPs for many years now & along with Welsh voters, has been responsible for returning a UK labour government on several occasions.

Would they be better at running an independent Scotland than they have the UK?

I'm not a Labour voter but I don't think so; after all, the UK's economy has been managed by a Scot for the last decade!

Anyway, for me, its not about economics, sport or London's dominance it is about (as you said) what I feel "in my heart" - and that is British.

434. Mike King
A short answer is that while we're in the union, I would support it. I well remember having to defend Margaret Thatcher when working in Germany - while slagging her back home here!

The rest would be a long answer, so in this posting I'll just make one point.

Strangely enough probably the one thing could be done to reduce independence fever in Scotland would be to sort out the media, particularly the BBC who are paid for by our license fees, as well as by the English - and Welsh and Northern Irish.

First thing to do would be to sack the producers and commentators of the "British" sports programmes. There's nothing more annoying than happily (or not so happily at times!) watching Scotland playing a world cup rugby match, and then half time "let's go over to the England camp". Not, note, the Tongan camp or the All Blacks camp, but the England camp. International sports coverage by the Beeb is completely English-centric. School holidays are another - when ours are different we have no childrens' films or programmes.

There are more serious issues like Westmonster having no interest in fishing, tagging 3.5 million sheep around the Highlands (not a lot of sheep in London I daresay, unless it be the Scottish MPs loving the capital city lifestyle). A lot of our issues are shared by the majority of England which is outside London and the Home Counties.

By and large though, Scotland is a socialist country, with islands and ferries, a stripped industrial and manufacturing sector, and a lot of poverty. This is a fundamental difference that can not be addressed within the union, even with stronger powers for Holyrood. London, the city state (to mix it up a bit) cares about - London. To be fair, with independence we'd have the same problem with Edinburgh.

But the one that's in our faces all the time is the media.