The Scottish Government

Ellis Sims - I am reassured you recognise some of the problems I am describing. However, I would have to disagree with your point about the Tory government in the 80s. Much of the North Sea development and exploration pre-dates the Tory victory in 1979; they simply exploited the opportunity presented to them. By the way, at the time the Government continually lied to the Scottish public – deliberately “estimating” their tax-revenue from the North Sea at as low as 1/38th of what actually flowed in to the treasury. This was exposed by the (UK Government commissioned) McCrone Report that pointed out an independent Scotland would “tend toward surplus to an embarrassing degree” and have the hardest currency in Europe (with the possible exception of the Norwegian krone).

Meanwhile, the area in which I live in was decimated at that time, much like the rest of the Central Belt. Gosport is on the Hampshire south coast, is it not? Probably represented by a Tory MP? Presumptuous of me to say so, but probably true! I suspect it would be easier to make such a case there, than in the areas still recovering from the brutal treatment dished out by the Tories in the past.

I am no fan of Labour (partly as they are too much like the Tories they use as the bogeyman to keep Scots in line). Also, the arguments for independence are not wholly economic, I fundamentally believe Scotland is a polity and as such it is best that it should govern itself.

Clearly we are not going to agree; however, as I say, I am reassured that you acknowledge many of the problems faced by modern Scotland.

Power of Pictland
when will your like show up again
to give some wisdom
and tell the nation
to tell the London set
to think again.

well said Robbie The Pict
#412

PMK, i can see exactly where you are coming from and your points are true, like the Scotland not fufilling its true potential in the global market place etc. This is true, i do believe that it has been held back.

However i don't see Independence as the way to do it. I agree with your arguements on Scotlands abilities not being tapped but again i don't believe independence is the solution.

What holds Scotland back is an awkward Devolution set-up and a stupid Labour Government. The tories in the 80's did create negatives but in the long term they created the Aberdinian oil industry, edinburgh into a Financial powerhouse (getting there rapidly) etc.

What scotland needs is not independence but a better devolved framework so to fully tap into its potential while still remaining in the Union.

Although the United Kingdom as a whole needs work, desperately.

Dear Mike, Ellis etc etc
Am I in the right place? This is the National Conversation? Where the people of Scotland will debate and eventually decide on the future of our great country Scotland.

Not wishing to appear impolite, antisocial or even, god forbid inhospitable but having read your comments, I do wonder with more than a little amusement, , , why are you here? Since you yourself have admitted that this decision can only and will only be made by the Scottish people.
Now, I`m all for healthy political debate UK politics European politics, hey, even global politics but just not within the confines of "the National Conversation".

Once again, please don`t think me rude. I am after all just another "Rabid Nationalist flag waver" but really, have you nowhere else to go ?

Ellis Sims - foreign business dominates the business sector in Scotland too! Ireland is economically successful, with long-term growth rates well above that of Scotland's. Indeed, almost all small independent nations in Europe outperform both Scotland and the UK. Incidentally, compare the growth rate of the Republic to that of Northern Ireland, where my family roots are. Tell me the Union has benefited the North economically, socially or in any other aspect! (Before you ask, my family background is staunchly unionist).

It is precisely because we live in a globalised interdependent world that Scotland needs independence all the more. That way it would be able to compete in the international market (as the Republic does), and not see its interests repeatedly traded away for buttons by those sitting in Whitehall.

Ireland was able to rediscover its culture heritage following independence, a cultural heritage that had been denied and had survived many attempts to destroy it.

Finally, the Union worked no "magic" for Scotland, the past 150 years has seen it provide nothing but agonising - managed - economic decline. It has drained the country of talented people and economic opportunities.

Face it your arguments are 300 years out of date! Some of them may or may not have applied at the time of the Union itself. I am quite willing to concede that the Union had some benefits to balance the losses in the early decades; however, the later half has been unrelentingly negative in its impact on Scotland. The Union is simply outdated and needs removed, it has held Scotland in particular (and the UK periphery in general) back for far too long.

I have one major question regarding independence either within or outwith europe, which is itself a matter for debate. My questionis this: If we vote for independence and succeed what proportion of the Uk debt will Scotland assume? This begs the question, is it sensible to start a scotland plc in a position of deficit?
I welcome the opportunity of the conversation but would like some indication of how all the points raised will be dealt with and when the conversatuion is likely to end and some action taken.

1707 the year of the creation of the United Kingdom
a deal behind closed doors with the collaboration of prominent titled men in Scotland
300 years of Labour and Tory and Whigs
all telling the working people of this nation how well off they all were.
do you reader remember sitting in your classroom being told of the greatness of the British Empire? sitting there blinded by snotters in a pair of worn out trousers lucky to have a council house to live in .......are you old enough to recall that?
the apologist for the Union the one who says there is no other way is the true BIGOT for he or she follows the politics of no hope that stupid view that promotes freedom in foreign lands but never in SCOTLAND.
while people carp about the snp many thousands of other people in Scotland work quietly for INDEPENDENCE.you can recognise the time is here for independence or you can hide in the dark room called unionism which has helped the poorest folk in the nation least of all.
it is not about being clever with words
freedom is a cry from the heart that the time has come for the nation to grow up and take its seat at the table.
England does not subsidise Scotland,if any here dare say it does ;present the evidence.
whatever any person here thinks the time for independence has arrived .
DEVOLUTION leads to Independence.
why?
because over time a devolved parly will come into confrontation over issues like poverty law justice with the other body opposed to it.
already it is taking place.
the UK parly wants to trade in the Lockerbie bomber (alleged) for £900 million worth of Libyan oil which means it has to override the SCOTTISH Justice system to do so.
result ;confrontation.
reader your pension is decided in London .
that in itself is only trivial except for one detail.
Pensions are NOT linked to the rate of INFLATION which means in every "region" of the UNION old peoploe get shafted.
when Glasgow wants to builkd houses they have to ask Parliament in England for money because Housing is a reserved matter (the funding bit)
if Devolution gave full power in this nation then Independence would be here now.
Gordon Brown knows too well that Independence is firmly on thelist of most wanted here in the nation and it will come.
unionists have nothing new to offer
their bill of sale has run its race
it is redundant
no one believes their lies any more
if you defend them
you defend failes and hopeless policies
they have been tried
they failed
their words are fork tongue
and no one listens
they are kaput
they say they have a new way
a third way
nonsense
tosh
hoohah
people in scotland
let this nation flourish
if you dont like the snp ok
this LAND IS YOUR LAND AND MY LAND AND EVERYONES LAND.
LET IT BE FREE

453. Ellis Sims

Ahem. I do believe that Scottish culture and identity - and people - were indeed transported (in unseaworthy ships and even small boats which often sank) around the world. However this wasn't voluntary, it was called "The Clearances", and this didn't end until an act of parliament in 1886. In the place of this culture and identity )and indeed people) Scotland did indeed receive massive amounts of revenue, though you and I might know them better as "sheep" - the Great Cheviot, 5 million of them.

So much for much of the 300 years of the Union, up to 1886 at least.

And yes, I do believe this wasn't in Scotland's best interests!