The Scottish Government

In answer to Craig Crook,missive 108

Hello Craig

You keep coming back to the fact that you are both Scottish and British;that I am confusing national identity with political inequality - but surely national identity is expressed through political institutions ?

If the national identities, whether Scottish or British are not affected by political representation, then surely it would be OK if the Scots re-established full political control over Scotland.

You would still be Scottish and British, but political control would have switched completely from Westminster to Holyrood. All it would mean is that you celebrate your Britishness in the same way you have hitherto celebrated your Scottishness, that is in a non-political way. All we are talking about is a slight realignment of your identities - your political identity would now be Scottish and you cultural identity British.

I am sure you can make this adjustment. Maybe wearing a bowler hat and cracking British jokes at parties. Playing a bit more cricket. Going down to your club in London a bit more often to share anecdotes with fellow Unionists, sneer at other nations fo not being 'as great as the British', that kind of thing.

You also say that independence would lead to divergence of policy etc. But surely you are not arguing that it is a good thing for Westminster dictated policy to overrule the will of the Scots ? You appear to be saying that the Scots are too inadequate or ignorant for their will to be as important in Scotland as the will of Westminster. Your argument would only hold if we were a region of England, and you have already conceded we are not.

You are unable to adequately define when the Union would be under threat, so how can you possible defend what you cannot identify and articulate.

I do sense you are getting at a 'feeling' or 'sense' of separateness and I would like to discuss this in a separate missive.

Ironically, I think the real turning point will come when the tories curtail Scots MPs voting rights at Westminster, as they have pledged to do. At that point I think the pressure for full independence may become unstoppable.

There is only a UK Labour government now because of the Scots Labour MPs. If voting rights are curtailed then their political purpose becomes redundant.

Finally, the countries of the EU have political differences expressed through their respective governments. They are still all European with open borders etc. Having their own governments does not mean conflict, just diversity. There is no reason to believe the relationship between Scotland and England would be any differant.

Awrabest

Go On Scotland!
Get your independance!
I am Irish and living in the UK for 25 years. I visit Ireland regularly. When I left Ireland half of the children of all familes of my parents generation had to emigrate. Now the situation is reversed with Ireland a popular destination for imigrants.
The UK has declined as a quality place to live, It is becoming an uneducated, squalid, impoverished police state.
If you guys have any sense you will pack your bags and get out from under the yolk.
You are a big country from the Irish point of view.
Instead of having to pay for the Royal family you can charge them rent.
Every chance you get to take a little power from Westminster take it!
The pound will decline with the dollar. Scotland in the Euro zone would have an immediate benefit to the Scottish economy.
Remember how the act of Union was established at the point of a sword!
So Come on Scotland!
There is a lot of support from your neighbours.

Thoughts on why independence is not separation !

I think I can understand Unionist fears around independence. Their fear springs from the philosophy underpinning their view of what it is to be British.

The best way to illustrate this is to tell of a personal experience I had many years ago, when I was just 14. At that time I had an English teacher who also originated in the South of England. I was just developing a political awareness and decided to write an essay in support of Scottish Nationalism - and at the end I said, that this essay would be marked down because my teacher was English.

This got me into deep trouble, but not because my teacher took this as a personal attack on him, because he was himself a Scottish Nationalist. I was being anti-English and xenophobic, and this was no part of nationalism.

It took me along time to get my head round this - how could an Englishman be a Scottish Nationalist. But the answer was simple - Scottish Nationalism is more than where you were born, in fact this is the least of it. It is far more about an underlying philosophy of tolerance and respect for others.

All his life this teacher had been subjected to the British xenophobic propaganda - 'the british are the best in the world', 'britain is best', 'they're just wops,wogs,frogs' (take your pick). This was the British identity.

The British Empire and conquering other countries carried with it a corrosive philosophy that being British was to be 'better' and somehow more entitled to respect than ever other nation.

Coming to Scotland and supporting nationalism gave him the freedom to support a new identity free from xenophobia and the need to be 'superior'. Supporting a Scottish identity through nationalism meant being able to treat all peoaples and nations with respect again.

Now for Unionists -given they have this attitude of superiority:the classic attitude of the bully - they believe that Scottish nationalists will behave as British imperialists before them. In other words to use political power to enforce 'superiority'; hold witchunts of Unionists,subjugate the English, treat other nations as inferior etc.

While in practice through our nationalism, the Unionists would not be persecuted but would find themselves freed from their insane superiority complex, able to treat all nations and people with respect again. To judge people by the quality of their character rather than provenance of their old school ties.

So you Unionists have nothing to fear except perhaps a few sessions of therapy to help you to aclimatise to your new found freedoms in a more civilised world...

I am totally against independance, the devolved government was what the Scottish people wanted, and if it goes to a vote the Scottish people will vote to show the likes of Mr Salmond that we don't want to go it alone. United We Stand,Divided We Fall..

1: "Independence" - what does that mean?

If it means the power to make the decisions that will make our lives better then we already have that both as individuals and citizens. Scots have consistantly under-utilised the ability of the Parliament to date and the SNP are clearly only using their powers to fog the real issues facing this part of the UK, Europe and the World by talking about "Independence" and meaningless arguements and postures around flags, "government not executive" non-Britishness whilst the things that hurt Scotland really, go untackled.

I think that Labour also underplayed the power of the parliament so that Scotland is in a position where it things if it sows loads and loads of saltires on its team strips and sticks loads of them on their cars and sing Flower of Scotland, all will be well.

You ARE independent - and you should chose to reject the squandering politics of the nationalists and any other party infavour of someone identifying and tackling the real problems....

2: Independence in Europe?

How's that for an oxymoron!!!!!

3: Who says it's all down to you anyway?

Hello!!!! I'm one of thousands of Scots who have chosen to work in another part of the UK or even the EU -why shouldn't we be involved in this decision?

4:True Independence

That's where you know that you don't need all this blue and white bollocks to be yourselves - you are free - free to accept or reject. The people of this island have so much more in common than we have against. In the context of history, this current generation that will influence the future of Scotland have been brought up on a diet of symbolism, selfism and Braveheart - it's what SNP thrive on....the naive vote.

The Union must stay, it would devestate Scotland as a country if it were to go independant.

My friend big jock knows this as well and would like to make it fully aware that he knew the effects of this.

To all those saying we should not have our independence ... why are we particularly inept at running our own affairs? Why is the right to self-determination dependent on where you are from? If independence has worked wonders for the surrounding nations (which it clearly has - look at Norway's rise from a Swedish dependency), why is (resource rich) Scotland less capable? Are we to be regarded much as anyone with a dark skin tone was in the past - natural "natives" designed to be governed by a far off imperial capital?

Scotland's potential is not being met - the biggest force preventing Scotland moving forward is the union ... break the union and we can prosper like our neighbours.

Also, notice the able Scots (now "Brits") who have made it to the top of the Westminster greasy pole telling us that they can be personally successful, but we as a nation are to A) stupid, B) poor or C) wee to prosper collectively. I dont buy it. Independence asap.

Ref: 128 below...

We have been inept, doesn't mean to say we will continue to be and it really doesn't mean that you have to have "Independence" to achieve that.

I also really resent Nationalists hiding behind Imperialism (Scots - historically a huge part and benificiary of...) and Britishness lets just pour the loch of cold water it deserves on all of that and consider talking about the United Kingdom instead.

Scotland's potential is not being met you are so right..but the biggest force preventing Scotland moving forward is NOT the union...its the people. A flag or a passport ain't gonna sort that...do you REALLY think Scotland's shameful drug problem for example, is down to us not being independent...what could we NOT have done about that do date as a nation?

Break the Union and you we can prosper like our neighbours. Stay in and if you had the belief and strength that we have as much right to the benefits of the Union and its acts and deeds as any Ulsterman; Welshman, Cumbrian, Geordie, Cornishman or Mancunian, then we can prosper even more.

I dont buy that any Scot in another part of the UK is calling any other Scot stupid. "Independence asap"...you've had it since you reached the age of 16.

God I do think the whole subject is somewhat wearisome!
Let me make it clear that I am extremely proud to be a Scot and during my 48 years in the diaspora I have never ceased to put forward Scotlands position and to guard against the British being put in Englands basket.

Let us not forget that britishness is a northern trait and characteristic and has little to do with London.

Why the h... do you all want to become part of some Scottish equivalent of (with respect) Slovenia, Lithuania or Estonia. Proud nations all!
But with no say in any matters of importance, whether in Europe or even within their own smaller regions.
Indeed we enjoy so many advantages over these countries. While being a very important part of the UK we do enjoy many national things of our own. We have our own rights of representation in many fields, such as football, rugby etc.
Why do you really believe that going it alone will make life north of the border better than it is today. Scotland is an important part of the United Kingdom, no less so than England. Both together have a much stronger pull in the World than either on there own. NBo part of the UK will be able to remain on the UN Security Council. The Scottish Prime Minister in the London Parliament,the representative of my birthplace, Kirkcaldy is able to speak out loudly on World isssues. I am sorry to say that Mr Salmon will never be in such a position.
I cannot understand the fear shown in Britain, by Scots and English alike, of the European Union. The future will show that the bigger political unit will be the seat of power. If Europe should split into Scottish sized blocks, then we would be confronted with a contininent made up of 450-500 States - who wants to be in such a Babel like confederation.
Yes, I support more Scottish rights and further delegation of tax powers to the regions, but please leave the UK intact and within the European Union.
sincerly
Alistair Hill

In Response to Graig Cook, Glasgow #79

Off topic to the debate on Independence but I feel that some people need a little shake into reality.

"do you really believe that we are just seen as a nation of drunken, kilt lifting entertainers? Come on man! "

Actually after several years of living with the Northern Irish and the English and Welsh I've had considerably more experience (than I would had wished to) of being the 'token Scotsman'. I find it quite distressing that the majority of people, from various classes and backgrounds seem to retain this idea that I am person from a nation of head butting, whisky fuelled, haggis scoffing, tree throwing, kilt lifting people and hate all the English due to what happened hundreds of years before I was even thought of. I have quite a lot of friends/family here in England, but if people live in the delusion that the Scottish are taken seriously, please wake up and smell the perfume, there is a world beyond your own back garden.

I think Independent Scotland will assist in helping people take notice that Scotland as a nation are proud of themselves and want to carve their own future as a nation and that we want to be taken seriously. There are risks for both for and against becoming independent and there are a lot of grey areas on both sides which both sides want to leave to the side and don't want to discuss. In all honesty, I do not think that EU or converting to the Euro should be tied into the draft/vote for independence and should be separate issues voted on accordingly.
First see if the people want to be Independent, then ensure the infrastructure in the independent Scotland works.
Then (and not before) put it to the people of Scotland if they wish to join the EU and or convert to the Euro. Tying these issues together makes for difficult decisions with no one fully realising any trade-offs or compromises made or one issue like the EU/Euro being used as a bandwagon for manoeuvring voters views in any attempt to prevent separation of Scotland from the UK.

Before any presumptions are made I am not wanting a independent Scotland for the Scottish. I want an independent Scotland for the people of Scotland.