The Scottish Government

1328. Phil - Dundee
Thursday, August 23, 2007 17:38

In reply to:
#1276. -
Wednesday, August 22, 2007 14:28

BTW I think that much of what passed for patriotism and nationalism in your neck of the woods was little more than the narrow minded religious bigotry that scarred this country when I was a boy.

#1326. Allan Steele - Washington DC
Thursday, August 23, 2007 15:51

How long is it now since the US fought its war to impose federalism on the southern states of the US?

I remember as a boy seing the last surving US Civil War vets on tv celebrating with their rebel yells.

Not everyone has always shared your enthusiasm for federalism even in the good ole US of A.

With a nation the size of the US, equal in its economy and land mass to the European Union, it is much easier to have a federal model of potential nation states.

The UK is smaller I think than any of the Federal States of the US and Scotland itself is only eg half the size populationwise of Metropolitan Chicago.

There's your problem.
We Scots have been a proud nation state for a thousand years, were coerced into a union with a larger state against our will and now that we are finally in a position to do something about it it's "oh don't go, we're so good together".

From the people who wrote the McCrone report, we are supposed to accept that we can trust anyone to look after our interests but ourselves?

Fool me once shame on you.
Fool me twice shame on me.

Read it,I found it quite illuminating.
http://www.snpyouth.org/documents/mccronereport.pdf

1326. Allan Steele - Washington DC

Possibly the neatest argument I've read, here or elsewhere , for a federal solution. This offers the best potential, both for your Scotland and my England.

Must be careful what we call it, though.
The Federal United Kingdom would abbreviate rather unfortunately!

#1328. Phil - Dundee
Thursday, August 23, 2007 17:38

Here's the bit I hoped you'd find on wikipedia.

Its how Scottish nationalists(small'n') understand our nationalism.

It's why we have English, Italian, Polish, Asian, etc elected members of the SNP in Scotland .

I am not and never have been a member or activist for any political organisation but this SNP concept of civic/civil nationalism appeals to me.

Yes I do find the 'wha's like us?' patriots embarrassing and do not feel at all comfortable with it.
I refuse to sing 'flower of Scotland' in the company of my English friends and family for the exactly the same reasons I don't like 'God save the Queen'.

Equally, anyone being derogatory about Scotland will hear about it, if I have anything to do with it.

That goes for the 'you're too wee, too small, too stupid' brigade.

Think on this the next time you feel tempted to try to make the evidence fit your preconceptions.

>>>
Civic nationalism (or civil nationalism) is the form of nationalism in which the state derives political legitimacy from the active participation of its citizenry, from the degree to which it represents the "will of the people".

It is often seen as originating with Jean-Jacques Rousseau and especially the social contract theories which take their name from his 1762 book The Social Contract.

Civic nationalism lies within the traditions of rationalism and liberalism, but as a form of nationalism it is contrasted with ethnic nationalism.

Membership of the civic nation is considered voluntary.

Civic-national ideals influenced the development of representative democracy in countries such as the United States and France.<<<


Where's the problem with that?

Ref: 1258. L Stevenson - Dundee
Wednesday, August 22, 2007 10:22

You say "Most of Europe is now made up of small nations and I for one think it's Scotland's turn to join them as an equal partner." and that "My question for all those who say Scotland wouldn't or couldn't survive is this. What makes Scots so singularly incompetent that, unlike the Irish, Maltese, Norwegians, Icelanders, Estonians, Latvians, Barbadians etc, etc, etc, we can't run our own show?"

The issue is definitely not that the Scots are incompetent. It is that the small countries in Europe have absolutely no influence over their own destiny nor ability to defend their own citizens against increasingly arbitrary EU administrative and legal decisions.

It is worth reading the paper, "The Real Crisis is already here" at:

http://www.seel-telesis.com/bsr/

#923 Mr Moron

Are you suggesting that the SNP 'fixed' the elections?

I put it to you that if Jack McConnell and his LAB/LIB DEM goverment had listened to the concerns about the ballot papers being severly flawed before the elections there would have been a real chance of the SNP winning by a greater margin; the 150,000 spoiled papers could have made all the difference.

WOW!! Is every card-carrying SNP activist signed up her, or what???

There also appears to be some confusion. Please let me clarify.

I am a Unionist. The presumption therefore appears to be that I don't want separation because I don't think my country (Scotland) could go it alone and prosper. That is not correct. No, I don't want it because I would prefer my country (Scotland) to remain a full participant within the Union. Full Stop.

Unlike many of those who follow the Separatist agenda, I actually like the English, etc. Crucially, thankfully, many of my fellow Scots think likewise.

If I had the decision a referendum would take place tomorrow.

I think Patriotism Nationalism does it realy matter what we could have is our own country (SO COME ON SCOTLAND!)Lets all stick together for once and we can have our own country!

In reply to:
#1276. -
Wednesday, August 22, 2007 14:28

I am not afraid of patriotism or nationalism, though I am concerned about what they can lead to. They are trivial concepts which, when imagined to be non-trivial, can lead to considerable violence and persecution.
I was born in Belfast and lived there with lots of patriots and nationalists during the '60s, '70s and '80s. I have experienced the narrow-minded condition that patriotism and nationalism develop. In the last 10 years, during which time I have lived in Scotland, I have felt that narrow-mindedness develop here too, mainly in media and political quarters.

By the way, why should I believe everything in Wikipedia?
For that matter, why should either of us believe everything written by Bertrand Russell or Mark Twain?
That was my fault for quoting Russell in the first place, but I thought his words would gain more attention than my own (and since you did respond, this may have been a correct assumption).

However, since you appear to believe everything in Wikipedia, why not try this link: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Patriotism , which tends to contradict your suggestion ("To help with your issue distinguishing the difference between patriotism and nationalism, so's you won't be afraid, try this link: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nationalism")

Then you will read:
Patriotism denotes positive and supportive attitudes to a 'fatherland' (Latin patria < Greek patris, πατρίς), by individuals and groups. The 'fatherland' (or 'motherland') can be a region or a city, but patriotism usually applies to a nation and/or a nation-state. Patriotism covers such attitudes as: pride in its achievements and culture, the desire to preserve its character and the basis of the culture, and identification with other members of the nation. Patriotism is closely associated with nationalism, and is often used as a synonym for it. Strictly speaking, nationalism is an ideology - but it often promotes patriotic attitudes as desirable and appropriate. (Both nationalist political movements, and patriotic expression, may, yet need not, be negative towards other people's 'fatherland').

Scotland is it's own country and with that comes independence. Why do what someone in another country tell you. We can make up our own minds. Scotland as a national country will become one of the super country's in the 22nd century in Europe. Just believe. No more depression and Tyranny from down south. ONE SCOTLAND