The Scottish Government

#1490

"or, indeed, almost any statement by Tony Blair, Gordon Brown, or the leaders of any other political party. Okay, so professional politicians in general have a poor record of trustworthiness."

Correct, Blair is not alone.
.
"MY side, Stevie? Which "side" would that be, then? I have already told you that, unlike you, I am not a member of any political party, and I have never even BEEN a member of any political party. What's more, I'm not a committed "supporter" of any political party. During the twelve years that I lived and worked in London, I never once voted for anybody. On the occasions in my sixty six years when I _have_ voted, I have voted five different ways (including, quite probably, for the party which you support)".

The "side" I refer to is the one that wants to take Scotland out of Britain, of course. I would have thought that was obvious.


"Stop trying to treat this conversation as if all the people with whom you are conversing are members of some rival political party. You will only make a fool of yourself if you do that."

Lecturing others won't attract support - at a guess I'd say it will only have the opposite effect.

"To conclude with something we can agree on, REFERENDUM NOW - INDEPENDENCE - YES OR NO."

I repeat the question - accept the outcome for how long? - a generation, or until the next election or the next, or the one after that, until you get the outcome you desire? What did Nicola Sturgeon say on 12 April?

Referendum or neverendum?

Why are unionist so successfull in persuading us we are subsidy junkies? What's in for them? My work entails dealing with folk from the European mainland. They can't understand our links to the mainland are corrupted by scaremongering non-Euro Unionists. Europe needs and wants a strong INDEPENDENT Scottish voice not one hiding in a bush fueled by brown soil

I wrote:
”Stevie claims he does not know the answers to any of these questions, “

Stevie replied:
I didn’t ‘claim’ anything of the sort. I said I didn’t have the answers.


I think we can leave that part of the conversation there,


I then wrote:
“yet despite this apparent ignorance he feels compelled to try to demonise only Scottish independence supporters”

Stevie repleid:
Again, incorrect. I have criticised the comments made by Ann Moffat in the House of Commons……..But then, of course, I never stated that it wasn’t mutually exclusive. In actual fact I can’t recall making any comment whatsoever on this.


No Stevie, your post clearly was exclusive and made no mention of ‘many’ followers of Unionist parties.

Here it is again for those who may have missed it:
"Unlike many of those who follow the Separatist agenda, I actually like the English, etc. Crucially, thankfully, many of my fellow Scots think likewise."

If you believe that there are many who follow the Unionist agenda who are anti-Scottish thenfeel free to say so, or reproduce the previous post.
I would disagre with you, I think that whilst there are indeed some, they are a very small minority.


I then wrote:
“implying (or more accurately inventing) a racist or xenophobic tendency.“

Stevie repleid:
Riiiight. If all else fails shout “racist” or “xenophobe”. The last actions of the truly desperate.


I don’t think that there’s anything that I need add to this. Advice to Stevie; Remember to regularly clean the bullet wound on your foot Stevie.



Stevie the wrote:
You claim I am a “racist”,

No Stevie, you are now lying. I have accused you of no such thing. I do however accuse you of displaing a prejudice suggesting a loathing of fellow Scots, based on no more than a POLITICAL difference.



Stevie summarised:
Ever the cynic I think your ramble was designed to deflect attention……


No Stevie, that is what your post was intended to do, introduce the bogeyman of xenophobia in order to deflect from the constitutional arguments and demonise independence supporters. Others of the same ilk have attempted to either discredit the debate or introduce the ‘racist’ card. They, like you will be challenged to justify their assertions and like you will struggle.

#1490. Dave Coull - Balnabreich
Saturday, September 8, 2007 07:52

I think you have hit on something there Dave.

Too many contributors on this forum, and Scotland generally, appear to me to share the view that it's 'my party right or wrong'.

I see their mindsets as being like football fans.
At some point they made up their mind that 'whichever' party are their 'team'.

They'll keep supporting this side until things come good for them, regardless of policies or what they've done, and bask in self congratulations if or when they do come good and win an election.

The opposition being ahead in the polls is like losing a match, or a popular policy like scoring a goal.

eg Baron Foulkes' contributions, to me, are like some Lithuanian diving in the box to con a penalty.

I know its a big ask, and a bit naive, but couldn't we all just look at the constitutional issues here objectively and take them individually on their merits rather than as a political football to attempt party political goals?

Can we keep the party politics as much as is possible out of this and just have the conversation on the issues?

Even in an independent Scotland there will still be party politics, with Scottish versions of the old Unionist parties perhaps in the position, free from head office constraints, for the first time to win real power to make a difference for the better in Scotland.

1488. Stevie - Dundee
Friday, September 7, 2007 12:39
I think you might find this mentioned in next month's budget.

Holyrood elects a government for a fixed four year term. We have been given the priorities for a minority administration's year one, not dependent on fiscal parameters to any great extent.

Until the the new administration know how much the Westminster handouts are going to be for 2008 they can hardly finalise their fiscal plans now can they?

Could this be the base for arguing that the body spending our money ought to be responsible for raising it in the first place?

#1478. -
Thursday, September 6, 2007 15:10

There's many a slip 'twixt cup and lip.

The May Election put support for the SNP at 35%.
The latest polls are now giving support for the SNP at 48%.
See how it works?

On any given day, with a given set of circumstances, responses to poll questions may vary considerably.

Neither the government nor the opposition parties would be doing themselves any favours to wait until a poll result favourable to their position appears and then plump for this as evidence, or a justification, for their position to those of the electorate they seek to convince.

Remember Neil Kinnock's 'Well Alright!' victory address to the Labour faithful before being slaughtered at the general election?

Was it David Steel who emoted: 'Return to your constituencies and prepare for government'?

Or Wendy who suggested her people: 'return to your constituencies and prepare for lunch'.

It may have come to your attention that both Labour in Scotland and the Tories, both once implacably opposed to even devolution-and to each other, are now expressing their support for the notion of 'Devolution Max'

Support for devolution is very nearly completely unanimous in Scotland.

Compare this with opinion even 8 years ago.

The electorate has seen devolution in action, and Scotland has not become the economic desert that Margaret Thatcher and her monetarist followers had warned it would, and did their damnedest to create.

Actually Holyrood is seen to be doing good things for Scotland, not least breathing new confidence and pride back into the old girl again.

An SNP administration?
The tides would ebb and forget to come back in.
The sun would set and be unable to rise in the morning.
Our cities would be laid waste by Islamist terrorists just waiting for the SNP to get into Bute House as the signal for holy jihad against us Scottish infidels.

Now the electorate can see how things actually are for themselves, those bogeymen have been relegated to the old coalbunker and that dark place under the beds.

To paraphrase AC/DC from the 70's:
Independence ain't such a bad place to be.

Stevie from Dundee (1479) says "For evidence of promises made and promises broken, please read the President, sorry First Minister's 'legislation programme'" - or, indeed, almost any statement by Tony Blair, Gordon Brown, or the leaders of any other political party. Okay, so professional politicians in general have a poor record of trustworthiness.

Stevie tells me "I don’t think for one moment that your side would be prepared to sign up to and honour such a commitment".

MY side, Stevie? Which "side" would that be, then? I have already told you that, unlike you, I am not a member of any political party, and I have never even BEEN a member of any political party. What's more, I'm not a committed "supporter" of any political party. During the twelve years that I lived and worked in London, I never once voted for anybody. On the occasions in my sixty six years when I _have_ voted, I have voted five different ways (including, quite probably, for the party which you support). Stop trying to treat this conversation as if all the people with whom you are conversing are members of some rival political party. You will only make a fool of yourself if you do that.

To conclude with something we can agree on, REFERENDUM NOW - INDEPENDENCE - YES OR NO.

Stevie from Dundee wrote:
(#1434) As I can't find any reference to the questions you posed I'm afraid I can't answer them. I should add that this is after heeding my own advice and googling. For the record this is what Stevie claimed: "Unlike many of those who follow the Separatist agenda, I actually like the English, etc. Crucially, thankfully, many of my fellow Scots think likewise." Stevie has publicly accused ‘many’ who support Scottish independence of being anti-English."

My evidence was based on the 7 comments I listed. My reply was based on an absence of available figures. Are they available? I see you haven’t supplied them. Am I therefore to deduce that is because concise stats can’t be googled?

”Stevie claims he does not know the answers to any of these questions, “

I didn’t ‘claim’ anything of the sort. I said I didn’t have the answers. Do you? If you do please feel free to provided them.

“yet despite this apparent ignorance he feels compelled to try to demonise only Scottish independence supporters”

Again, incorrect. I have criticised the comments made by Ann Moffat in the House of Commons.

“implying (or more accurately inventing) a racist or xenophobic tendency.“

Riiiight. If all else fails shout “racist” or “xenophobe”. The last actions of the truly desperate.

”There are at least two questions from the above list that can be answered without reference to google, they are: Is it only SNP members who are anti English? Are there any anti Scottish people in the U.K.? The answers to both are No and Yes respectively. “

I agree with your first point - it isn’t only SNP members who are anti English. My comments with regards to Ann Moffat are as previously stated. In relation to Point 2, if you check back to my original points they centred entirely on anti English/British sentiment within the SNP. As a Scot commenting on a Scottish party on a Scottish blog, I am solely concerned with what happens in, er, Scotland. What may or may not happen in England is irrelevant to this particular conversation. I can only surmise that you made this point to muddy the waters. It didn’t work.

"Honesty on Stevie's part would have led to the uncomfortable acceptance (for him) that prejudice is not mutually exclusive. What can also be stated is that the numbers who hold these views on either side are insignificant. “

But then, of course, I never stated that it wasn’t mutually exclusive. In actual fact I can’t recall making any comment whatsoever on this.

“There is though another prejudice becoming ever more prevalent as Scottish politics moves forward. This prejudice is displayed by people like Stevie, whose bitter loathing of fellow Scots, based on no more than a political difference, leads to these kind of distastefull labels. Thankfully, most comments on this forum are positive and contain the genuine feelings of those from both sides.”

Guff. Let me get this right. You claim I am a “racist”, someone who “display(s) prejudice”, question my “honesty”, accuse me of having a “bitter loathing of fellow Scots” THEN have the audacity to point out that most comments on this forum are positive and plead to the wider audience for a “more reasoned judgement”. Complete waffle. Ever heard of irony?

No Christmas card for you.

Summary: Ever the cynic I think your ramble was designed to deflect attention away from the FM’s lamentable performance over the last couple of days. Your frustration is understandable. His performance was, well......dreadful. It’s Time. To take stock. The honeymoon is over.

Let's debate policies. I would like to see Mr Salmond explain why he saw fit to drop from his programme key manifesto commitments he made before the election.

End to the council tax
Starter mortgages
Scrapping of student debt

Etc, etc

#1481

“Back at you pal. Pity Honest Tony is away, he could usually be counted on to obey Presidential requests. “

Right you are, er, pal. Both have broken promises to the voters - I completely and utterly agree with you on that point.

”Look at New Labour's Westminster election manifesto broken promises: "Education, Education, Education." “

Aah, education, a nice meaty bone for the SNP to chew on. Then again, maybe not. Commitments to cut class sizes and scrap student debt: how did that pan out in his legislative programme?

Maybe this is the desired effect but I'm gettin a bit wound up with some comments from people south of the border on the issue of independance - and I'm pro Scotland not anti-England of which there is a significant and positive difference!

So my message to these particular English people is this - by all means have your say about the pro's and cons of Scottish independance - at the moment you have a right to do so on this, the national conversation, but don't dare start with the 'if you go it alone you're not getting back in the Union when it all goes wrong!' comments - you are a partner in the Union not the rulers of it and its about time you realised that! At the end of the day this is a national conversation - the sooner Scotland becomes that nation the better!