The Scottish Government

I bet you won't permit us to have a conversation about independence for Shetland?

[1511] PS Share your thoughts on wishing success for Scotland in the football tonight and in the forthcoming rugby matches!

[1511] The short answer to the reason why myself, and perhaps others, are leaning towards independence, can be summed up in the contribution of #1508!

Having spent most of my youth in Ayrshire I was regularly exposed to the promises of politicians who purported to represent the poor and underprivileged in our society. Admittedly before moving to London, then overseas, to pursue my career, I suspected that the ‘working class’ were not generally well served in practise by representatives of a party who seldom looked beyond short-term fixes to more fundamental issues. Like probably most others of the time, I was essentially pro-Union, but moving overseas allowed me to stand-back from the day-to-day issues that had confronted our family when I was young, and to start to appreciate that it was clearly not a lack of talent, ability or skill that was at the root of many of the social problems that I had witnessed. A growing culture of dependency and diminished personal responsibility, often unwittingly fostered by people with genuinely good intentions, increasingly appeared to be intertwined with a London-centric Union. (Even today there are respected Scottish commentators, such as Andrew Marr at the BBC, who make unbalanced references to the ‘Scottish Subsidy’ without any mention of the disproportionate levels of funds that flow into London and the South East for ‘UK Projects’ ranging from the Channel Tunnel infrastructure and Millennium Dome to the forthcoming London Olympics). Yet, when one lives overseas one learns of Scots who have been successful across the spectrum of human endeavour, sometimes in the most challenging of local circumstances, therefore clearly it is not a ‘cultural limitation’ of the Scots that inevitably destines us to ‘servitude’.

With regard to some specific arguments that I personally would put forward in favour of Independence:

1. Independence will serve as a catalyst for positive change throughout our society as well as in the way Scotland is viewed from abroad.
2. A Scottish Parliament with full fiscal powers will be better placed to determine solutions appropriate to Scottish issues and to stimulate progress among Scottish businesses and in all aspects of Scottish life.
3. Scotland’s natural geography, resources and people place the country ideally within Europe to be at the forefront of development in environmental friendly energy production, and associated technologies, a position that is likely to be more keenly exploited with Independence.
4. A socially stronger and economically thriving Scotland will confidently contribute to our inter-dependent global society for the benefit of all, including our closest neighbours.
5. Instead of regretting the fact that disproportionate numbers of our children are still compelled to move to England, or further afield, to pursue their careers, I look forward to the day when we welcome the return of greater numbers of Scots to a re-invigorated country eager to fully exploit the talents, and encourage the contributions, of all who come to live here, or continue to live here, in progressing a prosperous but globally responsible and compassionate country.

In spite of the above arguments, the one proposition that could still possibly change my mind on withdrawal from the British Union would be an early withdrawal from the European Union, but as none of the major parties are advocating this, and our fusion in the latter gathers pace day-by-day, it seems unlikely that I will be faced with such a dilemma!

You think your part of a Conversation?! You thank the SNP for allowing you to have a conversation?! You are allowing an illusion, can there really be a conversation when the outcome is fixed. It matters not a jot what you say or think, you are choosing to be fooled.

Stevie you write "Sturgeon stated that a defeat in a referendum wouldn’t kill it dead. In other words, it could become a neverendum. I'm opposed to neverend(a)ums."

Why you opposed ? do you also not favour divorcé? nothing is set in stone and relationship change, tomorrow's children may decide enough is enough, who are you to deny them there voice.


With the vote like you a straight Yes or No would suit me fine, the question you and we should be asking is why the "Unionist" parties are afraid of asking that question, well?.

That to me is the most important question rather "evidence" what evidence can you provide that would say the people of Scotland would be worse off than just now?

#1502.If we are to get more people on our side we need to debate the reasons why they should.You say you are leaning towards independence.Perhaps you can help by saying why you will vote for independence.Good Luck to the boys in tonight's game in Paris.

What worth devolution without the freedom to to shape our own Foreign Policy. Read blogg 35 under Finance and sustainable Growth Secretary John Swinney.

I would like to thank Stevie from Dundee and Alex from Largs for their contribution to the debate so far.

Without intending to demean the extensive content of their posts I would suggest that their position may be summed up as "a bird in the hand is worth two in the bush." I believe this to be both natural and rational.

There must be many in Scotland who do not wish to endanger their way of life by launching on what appears to them as a dangerous expedition into the unknown. Certainly amongst them would be those who depend for their living on the UK government. I believe this may well be as many as 25% of the adult population.

If you add in those on pensions and long term disability we are probably looking at an additional 15% of the adult population, making 40% in all.

There are many businesses in Scotland who have vital trading connections with the rest of the UK since I believe at least 50% of our trade is with England. If we include the employees and owners of these businesses we probably have another 15% of the adult population.

So, if we all act in our own best interests, there is probably a core constituency of 55% of the adult population who would want to stay with the present position or at least not wish to rock the boat too much. This correlates very well with the polls suggesting that 30-40% support outright independence although perhaps twice as many want to have a referendum on the issue.

For my own part, my wife and I are pensioners and may well be among those who would suffer if Scotland gained her independence. However, paradoxically, we support the SNP because they favour an independent Scotland and, philosophically, so do we. My post #28 on Johnh Swinney's blog spells out my reasons for this position and the kind of arrangments I would like to see after we become self governing.

Having said this, I do not believe that independence is the word we should be using. I favour the expression self government obtained by re-negotiating our relationship with the rest of the UK with the objective of repatriating the legislating and governing authority over Scotland to our own Scottish Parliament. This would include fiscal and monetary autonomy, unless we decide to join the Eurozone at a later date.

We would still maintain a dependent relationship with the rest of the UK, as they would with us, and all of these matters would be determined during the negotiations. Therefore I would like to suggest that we have two referendums as follows:

1. Hold a first referendum to empower the SNP government to negotiate the best, mutually beneficial relationship possible with the UK, subject to a further referendum. This same referendum will empower the SNP to negotiate the relationship we could have with the EU or the EEA, in discussions with them after the conclusion of negotiations with the UK.

2. Hold a second referendum with two ballots. One to accept or reject the UK agreement. The second to choose between the EU and the EEA.

Whether this approach would encourage those who are nervous about the whole idea, to at least put their toe in the water I do not know. It is at least conceivable that Scotland, with a much reduced government sector, would be able to run her affairs more efficiently than the government in London. There are many serious social problems in Scotland that must be addressed and it may be that these would be more effectively tackled with self government. I have also addressed this question in post#67 under Getting down to Detail topic #1 Independence.

I am a 63 year old pensioner from Larkfield in Greenock. This area is in a terrible state, gangs of lads roam around with nothing to do causing trouble. People live in fear of drug dealers who never seem to be arrested.

I have always voted labour, my husband has never voted. I have watched as my sons and daughters have struggled to make a life for themselves. Things have been getting worse here ever since the yards closed. Two of my sons left to go South because there was no work, both eventally came back and one got into drug taking. If you didn't know someone in IBM or National Semiconductor there was nothing for you.

Now my grandchildren are growing up, the oldest is 24 and things have got worse. I feel really sad that after 20 years nothing is better.

My own mother who died 2 years ago always said that the goverment were lying about the oil money and I know now she was correct. She always wanted Scotland to be independant. I feel very sad at what has happened to Greenock, I don't know if it is the same all over Scotland but I imagine it is.

I am not ashamed to admit that I voted for Alex Salmond this time, my childeren did to and I encouraged my grandchildren. David Cairns is our MP and the man just makes me angry, he is never seen in these parts. I will not be voting labour ever again, a lot of my friends are the same.

I hope that anyone who reads my message will stop voting for labour and let the SNP speak for us. I do not want to see my grandchildren having to leave the town as well.

I have asked my son to send this message on his computer without changing it.

42 Alan Tait
"Remember the SNP is a minority Government,that means that the majority of people did not vote for them" That is true howevert when did the Labour Party either in Scotland or Britain for that matter ever have over 50% of the vote.With first past the post all Governments in Britain are "Minority " governments.