The Scottish Government

Hello, I am only old enough to have voted a handfull of times and never really cared much for politics, thinking very little is going to change here. However I was very interested in how the May election would turn out and stayed up to watch it.
Im glad now the SNP won, not just because I voted for them, but because it seems as if something new has changed over Scotland. Ive noticed that during break times at work or when out with friends more of the conversation is about the Scottish Government, Holyrood, Independence, etc and its good to hear everyones different views.
I have a few questions and would like to hear what others think.

Apart from oil, what other resources, exports, etc does the Scottish economy have?

Why do some people not like the idea of a referendum once a generation. Is it not a good thing to always have the option whether you agree with independence or not?

Does anyone know of websites which give pros and cons for independence, from an unbiased point of view?

Thankyou

I think this idea of a national conversation to be a terrific idea. Much of the worry and argument seems to centre around economic worries, but for me the issue is of a philosophical nature. "Are we a nation or not?"

As an aside:I read through the SNP paper which has been published and, if I understand correctly, the proposal is for a separation of parliaments whilst the position of royalty is changed to "Kingdoms" rather than "Kingdom".... a neat way of deflecting that possible difficulty of loyalty etc.

My own wish is for Scotland to reclaim its proper place in the world, and no amount of devolution will ever take the place of proper self government and all it entails.

Further to #1523, regrettably the situation seems even worse than what you have described given some of the cynical postings to this 'conversation' from persons who clearly are unwilling, or are incapable, of offering anything constructive on how we can relatively move Scotland forward within the Union (eg resolve the issues raised in #1508), yet seem to take a disdainful pleasure from attempting to dismiss, without reasoned argument, the words of those with apparently more ambition for Scotland, through Independence. As Labour found to its cost at the last election, conceit and negative tactics (that may be seen by some like-minded individuals to win a few exchanges) will fail in the long term with people who, unlike the cynics, are generally looking for a more positive future for themselves, their families and their country!

1508. gashand - Greenock

In your completely believable and straightforward report you have genuinely exposed what the majority of unionist contributors to this site would rather not mention. Instead they rattle on about the cost of this debate or how the Scots would no longer be part of Europe or how we could not stand on our own two feet. They somehow do not want to see their own contribution towards the state of Scotland. Of course they have their own leaders in London to keep them on the party line.
I have never heard any apology for the way life in Scotland has been allowed to go downhill, it’s as if they cannot see it.

1473. Gabrielle H - Aberdeen

Gabrielle H. I am not quite sure on how to approach your reply of Sept 3, as I think you are being obtuse. You state that you are not that interested in who is to blame for the present and ongoing mess yet in a previous post you claimed that you were a pragmatist. My pragmatism tells me to learn from experience. The fact that Scotland now has a better educational standard than it had in the past does illustrate that someone somewhere recognised the severe failings within the education system. I am not alone in thinking it still has a lot further to go.
Unfortunately the same backward dogmatic political outlook that was prevalent then is still very much alive and angry at their fall from the dinner table.
If you re-read my previous post then I stated that the article I quoted was published in the Media section in that days Times newspaper. It was an article referring to the ex director of the BBC, J. Birt, who in Chapter 19 of his biography gave details of the deal he came to with T. Blair and the current Labour Culture Minister not to give BBC Scotland a dedicated 6pm news slot. So, as I tried to illustrate to you T.Blair who was born in Scotland arranged to stifle for his own political gain the aspirations of the editorial board of BBC Scotland. I personally believe that G Brown must have known of this deal. If not the complete Labour hierarchy.
I cannot understand how you can appear to be so aloof from the situation here. I feel that you have the Ostrich syndrome, I quote you: -
“The reason I am not looking into the cause, or who is to blame for the current social problems is because I do not see that they are relevant to the future”.
Gabrielle H, if someone cheats me then I certainly would be very reluctant to put my faith in them, yet those bitter people who have just lost out at the last election have along with a group of people who would do anything for power have actively contributed to the state of this country by perusing their lack luster low definition plans. Or, am I wrong? Have all the small countries I have lived and worked in recently not had a superior growth in every aspect than here. Perhaps I have been deluding myself, but I seriously doubt it.
I can not understand how you dismiss the almost weekly reports about how Scotland has came near the bottom in some European survey. I have actually heard on the BBC World News a report about a South American country helping to set up a scheme to help one of the most depressed areas in Europe. Where in Europe? In Stirling. Please explain to me what sticking plaster solution the previous shared administration used to smother that success story.

dave - up north (1516) wrote "I bet you won't permit us to have a conversation about independence for Shetland?" - who is this "you", that you are addressing, Dave? Sure, somebody is "moderating" these messages, but only to make sure they aren't abusive or libellous. Since yours isn't, of course we can discuss your suggestion. So, here is a bit of background. In 1468, Shetland and Orkney were "pawned" to Scotland by King Christian of Denmark, because he couldn't come up with the dowry which he had previously agreed on the occasion of the marriage of his daughter to the Scots King. It might be possible to make out a case in law that Denmark could get the islands "out of pawn" by paying a sum equivelant in modern terms to the value of that dowry in 1468. But is there any demand in either Shetland or Orkney to be "returned" to Denmark? Not really. There is more of an affinity with Norway, than with Denmark. But although an affinity with Norway exists, there is no great demand for unification with Norway either. Nevertheless, the history of the islands does put them in a unique situation, and of course the government of Scotland recognises this, and of course it is up to the people of Orkney, and to the people of Shetland, to exercise self-determination. That self-determination is almost certain to involve remaining part of Scotland, but with considerable autonomy.
Is it conceivable that Orkney and/or Shetland could become independent? Yes, it is conceivable. It is conceivable that there could be two independent states, an independent Orkney, and an independent Shetland. (People tend to talk about "Orkney and Shetland", as if they automatically go together, but in actual fact there is a very large stretch of open ocean between the two distinct island groups.) However, although there is a demand for more autonomy in the islands, there is very little demand for independence. The broad-based movement for independence for Scotland is far more advanced than any such movement in either Orkney or Shetland. It is not impossible that "considerable autonomy" from Scotland could lead on to actual independence. I think that Shetland and/or Orkney would come under considerable pressure from the USA, because of their strategic significance to American interests, as well as because of American interest in mineral assets on the sea-bed. And of course this would also be true of the UK. But pressure from the USA and the UK would probably be true whether the islands are independent or not. The present Scottish government is clearly well aware of the unique character of the islands, and in fact I think we could safely say this would probably be true of ANY Scottish government, of any party. I don't think you could safely say this would be true of ANY "British" government. Therefore, if anybody in Shetland does want to work towards eventual independence for the islands, it is in their interests to support the removal of London rule from Scotland.

#1516 Dave

Good point. But it is a national conversation, so I don't see why it shouldn't be part of the discussion.

What is your view?

I think some people perhaps under estimate the impact of this conversation. Each week we gather at the kirk meeting room. There is Mr. Gray, Gerian Blantyre, John MacKay, Pauline McGregor and myself. One of us is selected as reader and then he or she reads the print-outs from the online blog. We then discuss the ones we think worth talking about. On this issue of independence we had a little chat on that one to find out that we are all don't knows. This has the advantage that we don't find ourselves taking sides and so we can explore a little more.
We are all getting on a bit so sometimes one or two of us snooze during the meetings. The other day Pauline McGregor brought some oatcake and we had this with some tea. It was so good the conversation seemed to drift a little off topic but then what is life if you can't do that once in a while?
Does anyone know if there are any European Grants to support meeting groups? Or does the SNP have a wee nest egg for this sort of thing? But then John MacKay said I shouldn't ask this sort of thing since he fears we might give the Cairngorms a bad name as being a dependency economy or something like that. Gerian even went so far as to say asking that sort of question might be thought of as scrounging and it would be shameful. Mr. Gray has no opinion on this issue. My own position is who cares? It is always worth a try.
Well this concludes my monthly report on our little group's efforts at Drumochter in the Cairngorms and I hope to come back with our next report in a month's time. I have asked the rest of the group to come with specific comments and ideas so by then we should have reached some conclusions.

Donald McFludden Densop

Gashand, Greenock
I read your post and take heart that as a lifelong Labour supporter you have realised that things are going nowhere.Labour has failed Scotland pure and simple,they seem quite happy to have vast numbers of our people going nowhere. You may not agree with all that the SNP stand for but at least they offer a fresh start and hope for the people of Scotland.

Stevie (1505) wrote "My own view is it has to be a straight YES/NO – a YES vote would mean immediate consultations towards a date for separation; a NO vote would mean continuing the Union with discussions on increased powers".

I agree.