The Scottish Government

I do not know if anyone has noticed, but…a member of the elite has been given his reward. One of those individuals whose party does not want to give us plain ordinary folk a chance to have a little say in democracy with a referendum.
A party that supposedly is Liberal and Democratic in name but definitely not in reality. A party, that was led by this gentleman and who appear to have an absolute hatred of the idea of their fellow Scots being allowed to govern completely their own country. A group who have a passionate loathing for the very idea of Scots being allowed to talk or vote about a referendum on Independence.
They obviously see this as a threat. Possibly to their only hope of POWER when chances are they would have jumped into bed again with a Labour minority government. This ex leader now joins that old boys club in the House of Lords. The very bastion of democracy. A privileged club that the Labour party has been promising to close for 50 or 75 years. Perhaps that will provide an example of how strongly they hold onto their promises. So, he will retire with the rest of the flunkies and apparatchiks or those kind party benefactors who are almost completely divorced from day to day life, yet somehow are allowed to help shape laws and conditions that rarely affect them. Has anyone who is reading this ever asked any of these privileged elite to do something for them? What was the result? was your problem solved?
However, I wish him and his daily attendance remuneration plus expenses well.
A number of the contributors to this debate have expressed their concern over the social problems that most of us see on a daily basis. They have suggested that we sort these out before venturing out on an Independence route.
I am working on an extension. The screws I am using are made in England, as is the Insulation, The plasterboard comes from Europe. The timber is from Latvia. The roof slates are Spanish. The rep working for the Scottish branch of an English Builders Merchant drives a German car bought for him in England as are the lorries used to deliver their goods. The cement is made in Scotland for an English company and the bags holding their product are produced in England. I do not waste my time thinking about the reasons for this situation but I do question why.
Personally I believe that those who have brought about this dependency culture, who have stood by while industry after industry has been flattened should be exposed, as the media certainly will not help. I seriously do not want to have the same good ole boys allegedly running this country.

[1532] “Stan, in agreement with many who favour independence, including the SNP itself, only favour it if it means that we remain within the EU.”

This is not an exact reflection of my thinking, and perhaps not a reflection of SNP thinking, but sums up the current situation in which I would suggest it is logical, in global economic terms, for Scotland to separate from an old and declining Union, even given historical and emotional ties, before considering separation from a new and growing union. Once Independence is achieved, Scotland would then be in a position to assess, probably more objectively, the relevance of the EU to progressing Scottish aspirations and it is possible that outside of the Union we will find our direct participation within the EU to be of greater value to Scots than it perhaps appears today.

With regard to the argument in favour of calling for a referendum on independence from both unions at the one time, perhaps akin to a multiple divorce in countries that allow ‘bigamy’, this is not a practical alternative except in the most ideological minded. The reality is that most people have a fear of change, even if for many this is subconscious, so to attempt to make two such fundamental changes in our constitutional arrangements at the one time would be destined to failure, and, in my opinion, would probably result in achieving neither no matter the strength of the prevailing arguments. However, in the meantime it probably also makes sense to be wary of the transfer of further powers to the EU that might significantly limit Scotland’s choices in the future.

Many people so far have expressed a real desire for self determination, however have stated that they are unsure of the pro's and con's of such a venture. I think that this is a challenge to every elected official in favour or not to put there case forward minus the "lies and spin". The ones in favour of the Union have yet to convince the majority of any positive outcomes or reasons for staying with this 300 year old Union. Talk of Federalism or being swallowed up by an ever increasing E.U. merely diluteand confuse the issue. Lets take one step at a time!
Hard facts and figures are what we need not suppostion or party political tongue-wagging.

I will vote for Independence If given the oppurtunity because I believe that we have the intelligence, the capabilty and the moral right to determine our own constitutional future. I'm disappointed when some hark on about the supposed financial cost, it seems they are happy with their enslavement!

We are supposed to be partners in this Union, however it seems that we all do not have an equal say in how it's administered. Hardly democratic, but then how democratic can a Constitutional Mornarchy really be?

As someone who has lived some time in Catalunya, but is now resident back in my native Scotland, can I enter a note of caution in to the conversation? Many people from the autonomous regions of Spain - Basques and Catalans - have felt obliged to take dogmatic stands on their constitutional question through the rhetoric of their politicians. Moreover, the spotlighting of the independence issue has ramped it up the agenda in these areas above and to the detriment of most people's more pressing concerns. I don't want to see this happening here.

We Scots have more burning issues that we need to converse about to come up with action plans collectively. For me these are: poverty, poor housing, domestic abuse, poor health, children affected by drug-using parents. I'm sure you all out there will either share these concerns or have others to add to the list. The question is: do you feel the constitutional question should take priority right now?

I must end by stating my position. I voted SNP at the last election and feel that independence will evolve from devolution in my lifetime. Nevertheless, I urge our new government to aim for higher ideals and avoid stirring up the base emotions - pettiness, jealousy, mean-spiritedness - which can be provoked when politicians wrap themselves in any flag. I don't think Alex Salmond has done this yet, (and the above description better fits the election campaign and reaction from the Scottish Labour Party), but he would be wise to ca' canny.

#29 - Cat. #14 - Stan Grodynski.

Cat, in your post #29 you say you share the doubts expressed by Stan Grodynski, in his post #14, about the EU, but he evinced no such doubts. On the contrary he is completely in favour of remaining within the EU even to the point of opposing independence for Scotland should the UK decide to leave it. Stan, in agreement with many who favour independence, including the SNP itself, only favour it if it means that we remain within the EU.

For myself, I cannot honestly call that independence, especially if the current EU treaty is fully ratified and the European Union becomes even more integrated. As a constituent part of such a Union we would be largely governed, once again, from a distant centre, by those whose interests, in many cases, would be divergent from our own. More importantly, our monetary and fiscal policies would be dominated by the needs of the larger economies in the EU since, in all likelihood, we would also join the Eurozone.

In many other posts I have made a case for independence outside the EU that would satisfy all the criteria that Stan puts forward as being why he favours independence. In post #28 under John Swinney's blog I have sketched one possible scenario for complete independence with fiscal and monetary autonomy, without compromise.

Taking everything into account, our spiritual convictions, the talents and capabilities of our people, our farming, our fishing, our geological resources, our industries, both traditional and modern, our history, our geography, even our weather, it is my belief that we can create a society where every member will have the opportunity and liberty to pursue their own happiness, and that of their neighbours, whatever they conceive that happiness to be.

Of course we shall all seek and foster good relationships with other peoples, all kinds of relationships, but we must not enter into any binding covenant of any kind, with any other nation, that would limit our freedom to act in the best interests of any part of our own Scottish society. We must have the courage to seek our own destiny.

[1529] My comments were not so much expressing doubts about the EU but expressing doubts about the continuing sustainability of Scotland’s participation in both the British Union and the European Union, not only from a cost/value perspective but from the perspective of Scotland having more direct influence in pertinent matters across the combined domestic/international policy spectrum. However, further to my earlier posting at #1147, the only practical choice that any of the major political parties in Scotland are giving us is Independence from the British Union as offered by the SNP. Even if this outcome were to eventually lead to the disappearance of Scottish bank notes, I personally think that in the overall scheme of things this would be a small price to pay for the net benefit accruing to Scotland through having more control over its own destiny.

PS Am not concerned about the cost to Scotland of paying its contribution in temporarily assisting countries that join the EU, because in the longer term, besides helping to move more people across Europe out of poverty, stronger economies in these countries will create bigger markets for premium goods and services delivered by a vibrant Scottish economy!

Geedee from Midlothian (1526) asked "Why do some people not like the idea of a referendum once a generation" - the truth is that some politicians just don't like the idea of referendums at all. They would prefer we just left the decisions to the politicians! This is true of ALL political parties. Some politicians are extremely reluctant to hold even one referendum and even more against the idea that there could be more than one. However, there is some evidence that referendums lead to a general increase in happiness. The London-based "Independent" newspaper recently had a two-page spread on the subject of happiness, quoting international polling figures on such questions as "Would you describe yourself as very happy/quite happy/happy sometimes/not happy/not at all happy?". Some of the findings of the "Independent" survey were not surprising (for instance, people in relationships are generally happier than single people, family is important for happiness, work is important for happiness, etc) but there was one very interesting finding on the subject of referendums. Democracy makes people happy, and the more democracy there is the happier people are. There was a detailed survey from Switzerland, where they have lots of referendums, on loads of questions. People in Switzerland definitely felt having referendums made them feel happy. What's more, Switzerland is divided up into "cantons", and these cantons run their own affairs, including deciding how many referendums to have. The cantons where people were most likely to say they were "very happy" were the ones which held the most referendums. People LIKE being consulted, they LIKE being asked for their opinion.

#1514 I share your doubts about the EU.The way I see it is that we pay too much to it at the moment and joining would mean the end of Scottish notes which I would hate.

Also, pressure to provide investment for poor nations that have just joined means wealthier nations coughing up more.As a country with oil that would mean us too.

We pay enough as it is as part of the UK!

Geedee, Midlothian
Even without the oil in our waters Scottish companies are exporting their expertise to developing oil fields around the world, that in itself is an resource we export.
Our farmers can and do export beef and lamb to Europe and what is left of our fishing fleet still do likewise in exporting to europe.
Take our tourist industry, properly managed and promoted can be a major revenue source along with Whisky which i once read accounts for about a fifth of the UK's food and drink exports. People will say that the drinks industry is no longer a Scottish industry, true but the international companies are not going to walk away from a multi million pound industry and they pay taxes here or to the treasury at present.
We can be leaders in renewable energies too, wind and wave projects plus the carbon capture plant proposed at Peterhead but held back by the UK government, then of course there is water, who is to say we could not export that to England where there are shortages every year.
The scaremongers tell you we cannot stand alone but we have far nore resources than many other countries do and they seem to get along just fine.

One or two people reviewing Part 1 of the Fiscal Autonomy paper suggested that we add a summary.

This has now been added and the updated version can be found at:

http://www.seel-telesis.com/bsr/

We expect Part 2 to be issued sometime next week.

Hector McNeill