The Scottish Government

#1681. Referendum - Result - Official - Fife
Friday, November 2, 2007 00:35

Haven't you got anything better to do than to discredit your unionism with constant negativity?

It appears that for you (and others wearing red roses in Scotland) lessons from the campaign leading up to the humiliation for the former First Minister have still to penetrate.

Consider also that the current FM's party achieved that result; without the media exposure and access to civil service information now enjoyed, and inspite of the under-funding that the leader of the opposition has only now belatedly recognised.

Your poll reflects a mood at the time of the May election, which was conducted with the only significant mention of independence being made by Labour in Scotland.

So they managed to convinced two out of three Scots that:
There's a Scottish economic black hole now that 'North Sea Oil is running dry and oil prices are set to fall'; Scotland is too wee, too poor, and lacks the talent or ambition to survive without Westminster; Independence would cost every household in Scotland maybe £5000; Al Qaida are just waiting to bomb Scotland when if votes for independence; The Russians set to nuke Scotland if we get rid of nuclear weapons from the Clyde.

Well done, you fooled most of the people enough of the time.
You just fought the wrong election, Independence was never on the agenda.

Alex Salmond's party, however, persuaded enough of us that London controlled Unionist parties cannot be trusted to look out for our interests.

Those impressions are reflected in your 'Referendum - Result - Official' but where are the figures for the parties and party leader approval ratings?

Personally I look forward to the next set of polls on the response to how each party has conducted itself since May.

btw I do agree with you that 'If you want to keep the job you had better start producing the goods not empty promises'

What is Jack McConnell up to these days and how is Gordon Brown doing?

#1681

I fear you are making the same mistake many others have in assuming the recent election result mirrors support for independence.

Allow me to explain a couple of reasons why you are mistaken.

1. There are supporters of independence amongst voters of every party not just the SNP.

2. There are those within the electorate (around 15%) who do not take part in elections but who do take part in referendums.

Dave Coull has given further reasons for not extrapolating the election result in this manner. However the two I have given are quantifiable and accepted.

Feel free respond to this post if you disagree with me.

Incidently, I make no claim to know the figures for support or otherwise for independence amongst the Scottish electorate.

My question is, even if Scotland became an indepedent sovereign state, would I actually gain anything from becoming a Scottish citizen?

As I understand it (from the various FAQs on the SNP web site), those who continue to live here in Scotland, but choose to remain citizens of (what would remain of) the UK, would still be entitled the same rights as Scottish citizens (freedom to live here, work here, receive appropriate state assistance/benefits if needed ... etc.).

So, there wouldn't appear to be anything to gain in becoming a Scottish citizen on that score.

I also believe, that it is likely Scotland would negotiate a dual citizenship treaty with the UK, but would this gain me anything either?

Yes, I would have two passports, one British and one Scottish, but with two sets of fees to pay, in order to maintain them. Would a Scottish passport give me anything more than a British one?

With a British passport, I can make use of all the existing immigration treaties that the UK has signed. I also have the support of the British diplomatic services overseas (which exist in vritually every other country on Earth).

An independent Scotland would probably have to negotiate it's own treaties (certainly beyond the EU, and possibly with the EU itself as well), so there's no guarantee that I'd be able to travel as freely under a Scottish passport as I can under a British one. I'm also not convinced that Scotland would be able to provide the same level of diplomatic presence overseas, as the UK does, should I ever require assistance abroad.

So, whilst I'm neutral on the independence question, and am happy to hear reasoned arguments for and against, it does strike me that there would be nothing to gain by becoming a Scottish citizen, and there might even possibly be things to lose. Remaining a UK citizen, but living in Scotland, seems to be logical, safe option.

What it says on my passport would make me feel no more or less Scottish than I do already.

So, I guess the simple question is, "Would there be any point in becoming a citizen of an idependent Scotland?"

If there isn't a practical reason why people should become Scottish citizens, this could result in the situation of Scotland being an independent sovereign country, populated by around 5 million people, but with (significantly fewer) actual citizens.

Wouldn't this be a bit odd?

I totally support independence for Scotland.

Looking 100 years into the future, an historian may well say about this time in Scottish politics:

"From 1997 Scotland, then in the UK, obtained limited devolved powers to decide parts of its own economic and social future. Over the years it used these powers more and more to address its own unique social and economic problems and weaknesses. As the populace saw the benefits of these actions, the Scottish Government sought to increase these powers, and reduce the power of Westminster (seat of UK government) to legislate on Scottish matters. At times the attempts to increase these powers were unsuccessful, and this led inevitably to tension between Holyrood and Westminster. While in the first instance this struggle was mainly conducted between the SNP when they were in government and the UK government, the other political parties became themselves also more committed on various issues, to support the Scottish government's attempts to have more powers devolved to Holyrood.".

"At the same time there was a continuing move to more collaborative government in Holyrood, rather than the confrontational government at Westmonster. Labour, Liberal Democrat, Conservative and minority party MSPs were invited and appointed into government positions and this coalition was widely recognised by the population to be a great success. As a result these other political parties became more and more Scottish parties, rather than just regional parts of the central party, with limited ability to affect that party's policies. As well as more co-operation and concensus between the Scottish political parties, there became less disagreement within each party as to the best courses of action for Scotland.".

"Independence from the UK was achieved quietly by Scotland in 2014, with the full support of all political parties within Scotland leading to an overwhelming vote for independence in a referendum.".

Hmmm, I forgot one:
"In 2018 Scotland won the World Cup in both football and rugby union".

There, that's better now!

1680. David Robertson - Inverness
Thursday, November 1, 2007 17:57

Yes no doubt you are also right that momentum for the independence movement has built steadily over the years.

If in 1990 Westminster had announced that devolution was to be scrapped, how much different then would the reaction in Scotland have been to the same announcement if made today?

I would argue that the objective as far as Whitehall is concerned has not been to try to kill devolution or non-dependence,(N.Ireland showed where that leads) but to give us it in small enough doses to keep a lid on demand, for just long enough to get as much out of the North Sea as possible until that resource is no longer commercially viable.
About fifty years still on current estimates.

Credit where it's due they have fooled all of the (Scottish)people for some of the time(McCrone Report 1975) and will always fool some Fifers from Methil, it appears, all of the time.

Fifty years? Yes that's about right, by then our North Sea Oil 'lottery win' will have transformed the East End of London, Middlesex, Kent and Essex in general, rebuilt Greater London's road&rail network with fast links to the continent, sporting and cultural facilities, staked stock market gamblers' bonuses in the Square Mile and Docklands, thrown in an Olympic cash injection or two and the odd World Cup.

We will then be permitted to 'go our own way' and be expected to touch our forelocks and express humble gratitude to the Mother of Parliaments for the magnanimous gesture.

All the while we will still be argueing about upgrading the M8 to motorway standard, or building a bridge into Fife to replace the old suspension road bridge that eventually collapsed in the January storm of '27, and what to do with all the old derelict Polaris, Swiftsure, and Vanguard nuclear submarines left to rot at Rosyth?

The puir wee soul in Methil will still be dazzled by the opulence and granduer of the Metropolis.
Never once dawning on him that actually he paid for it all, and that being regarded as 'British' is to be marked down as being as bit less than UK 'Premier League'.
Who but a sectarian religious extremist would wear the badge of 'North British' with any pride?

#1673

FOR independence 23% AGAINST 77%

Face it you are the party repository for voters to keep Westminster on its toes! It used to be the Liberals or Labour when the Conservatives were in charge.

If you want to keep the job you had better start producing the goods not empty promises!! For the First Minister to dismiss serious questions on the SNP's failure to meet their own manifesto promises just doesn't sit well with the electorate. See the poll result above. If a week is a long time in politics then four years is an eternity. Just hope the Conservatives don't win the next General Election if your performance to date is maintained at the same level.

#1678

Yes, you are no doubt correct. The incremental move to independence and beyond, to complete legislative, governance, monetary and fiscal autonomy is surely the way it will pan out. This is no doubt why the EU itself has been formed slowly and deliberately over the past fifty odd years. It gives people time to get used to the idea.

At least the SNP have been forthright about their aims which is more than can be said for the nomenklatura in Brussels and Strasbourg. The end result however will be the same.

We are living history, which is wholly different than reading about it. It is like making decisions about investing in the stock or futures markets, by looking at historical charts, and then going through the ups and downs of the market fluctuations. The living experience is a lot more unsettling.

Many in England are up in arms about Scots Ministers dictating to them, sending gobs of money back to their constituencies in Scotland, leading them into foreign wars and voting on legislation that affects only England and Wales. They are in favour of having their own English Parliament just like the Scots, Welsh and Irish.

In justice I believe they have a point. They should have an English Parliament and Government just like us, with Members of the English Parliament (MEPs) dealing with English only issues that have been devolved to them. They already have Parliament buildings in London so there would be no cost involved.

The UK Parliament and Government can be moved to somewhere in the Cheviots, straddling the border, with good rail access to all parts of the UK. English MPs can then travel up to Scotland to meet on UK business, just like Scottish, Welsh and Irish UK MPs.

Once all the National Parliaments have been established it will then be easier to put pressure on the UK Government to devolve more powers to them and, eventually, vote itself out of existence.

#1676

Salmond's rise to FM has blinded many here into thinking that this meant support for the SNP/separatist agenda when it didn't. He was seen as a better opyion than the alternative (McConnell).

It has also been clear for some time that the overwhelming majority of Scots prefer more powers to a complete break from the Union.

This particular poll shows support for separation once again stalled at around 23%.

No amount of clarification from Salmond will alter the fact that for many Scots being Scottish and holding a British passport remains, and will remain, important to them.

#1673

At least you are talking to 23% of the population I' talking to 77%