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Meeting note - 4 April 2005

WORKING GROUP FOR RESEARCH INTO THE LEGAL SERVICES MARKETS IN SCOTLAND
NOTE OF SEVENTH MEETING ON 4 APRIL 2005

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Present:

Valerie Macniven, Scottish Executive Justice Department, Head of Civil and International Group
Professor Alan Paterson, Director of the Centre for Professional Legal Studies, University of Strathclyde
Professor Frank Stephen, Professor of Economics, University of Strathclyde
Martyn Evans, Scottish Consumer Council
Sarah O'Neill, Scottish Consumer Council
Alan Williams, Office of Fair Trading
Chloe Clemmons, Citizens Advice Scotland
Douglas Mill, Chief Executive, Law Society of Scotland
Michael Clancy, Director, Law Reform, Law Society of Scotland
Neil Ross, Grigor & Young, Elgin
Michael Walker, Maclay, Murray & Spens
Roy Martin QC, Dean of the Faculty of Advocates
Dr Anita Morrison, Head of Legal Studies Research Team
Debbie Headrick, Senior Researcher, Legal Studies Research Team
Mike West, Scottish Executive Justice Department, Legal Services Policy Team
Carole Johnston, Scottish Executive Justice Department, Legal Services Policy Team

Apologies

1. Apologies had been received from Lindsay Montgomery, Scottish Legal Aid Board, Andrew Dickson, Scottish Executive, James Wolffe, Advocate, Elaine Samuel, University of Edinburgh, School of Social and Political Studies, and Professor Rob Baldwin, London School of Economics and Political Science. Valerie Macniven explained that she was chairing the meeting in Andrew Dickson's absence on leave.

Minutes of the Last Meeting

2. The minutes of the last meeting had already been agreed in correspondence.

Matters Arising

3. The Faculty confirmed that it had provided Professor Stephen with the information he had requested on advocates overheads and the functions of Faculty Services Limited.

Auditor of Court: Oral Report

4. Professor Paterson outlined progress to date on the research. Although a small number of Sheriff Court auditors had now been interviewed, the majority of auditors had declined to take part, the recent consultation by the Scottish Courts Service (SCS) being a key factor in the low participation rate. The Auditor of the Court of Session had been interviewed, along with 4 Sheriffs Principal, the Scottish Legal Aid Board (SLAB), SCS, and the Law Society of Scotland. A law accountant had still to be identified for interview, and practitioners were to be interviewed as part of the research into advocacy services. The Society expressed disappointment at the low response rate from auditors, but it was difficult to press hard for cooperation in the light of the recent SCS consultation exercise. Progress had been made on establishing the role and duties of the Auditor of Court. Evidence was emerging of a potential for a lack of consistency in outcomes and of the possible absence of mechanisms to ensure consistency but it would be important to study the guidance available to auditors before reaching any conclusions. There were still some practitioners to interview and the Legal Studies Research Team would write up the findings for the next meeting. [The Society of Sheriff Court Auditors have since agreed to be interviewed].

RWG 2005/7/1 Legal Disciplinary Practice (LDP)

5. In introducing his paper Professor Stephen noted that

  • The norm which the paper assumed was that of a split legal profession. The paper did not address the implications of merging the two branches of the profession in Scotland or explore the fact that the great majority of other jurisdictions had a unified legal profession.
  • he did not accept arguments that the absence of apparent demand for LDPs meant that change should not be considered. It was unrealistic to take the concept of market failure as a starting point and to assume that the market could not benefit from a structure that was currently prohibited.

6. Professor Stephen explained that as LDPs were new there was little empirical evidence available for evaluation. Risk spreading was not a significant issue for LDPs, as the paper explained. The crucial issue was whether there were economies of scope to be gained from combining the litigation role of the solicitor with the advocacy role of the advocate within the one organisation. There was limited research on the detailed workings of LDPs. Economies of scope might be more obvious when the litigation and advocacy services were provided by the same individual eg a solicitor advocate (which did not necessarily require an LDP structure), but not so obvious if the two types of service were provided by different individuals in the LDP. He concluded that arguments for economies of scope were not as strong as they were often made out to be; the question was what the costs and benefits were of providing services in the same organisation.

7. The paper suggested that another way to examine LDPs was as a form of vertical integration between the litigation stage and the advocacy stage in the resolution of a dispute. The motive for vertical integration could be a desire to reduce transaction costs, or less probably a desire to exercise a monopoly power which might arise if an LDP was able to foreclose a particular market to its rivals. It was conceivable that foreclosure might occur if LDPs were to involve senior counsel. The issues were whether the risk was sufficiently great to raise concerns that LDPs would foreclose the market for advocacy for some; and whether LDPs would destroy specialisation. Professor Stephen doubted whether large numbers of LDPs would emerge if restrictions were relaxed; and wondered whether the risks were so great as to justify preventing opportunities for development of this business structure.

8. The literature on 'corporate architecture' argued that partnerships were the most efficient organisational form for professional services because of the asymmetry of information between clients and professionals and the absence of the need for the financing of large amounts of physical capital. This differed from the view of LDPs taken by the Clementi report. The absence of empirical work made it difficult to draw conclusions. If LDPs were allowed, Professor Stephen suspected few would emerge or be successful.

9. Professor Stephen thought that the discussion in Sir David Clementi's report which linked external ownership and LDPs had the effect of confusing the regulatory issues. What was proposed was the regulation of the business unit or LDP, not the individual members, but given that LDPs were likely to be created in relation to particular sub-markets what would be involved in practice would be the regulation of sub-markets. In conclusion he asked why opportunities to develop LDPs should be denied to those who believed there were advantages to be gained, particularly in the light of a lack of concrete evidence.

10. The Society noted that it was not aware of any demand from its membership for LDPs in Scotland, but agreed that lack of demand was not a reason in itself to prohibit LDPs. The Society also agreed that the introduction of LDPs was unlikely to have a huge impact on the market, but had substantial concerns in relation to non-lawyer ownership of LDPs.

11. OFT agreed that the key question was whether a prohibition on LDPs could be justified, given that the market place was dynamic and thrived on innovation and new ideas. OFT thought that a prohibition was unnecessary unless there were clear public interest dangers which could only be resolved by banning the particular business structure. The market should otherwise be left to decide what was most appropriate. While there should be no obligation to enter into a new business structure, OFT recognised the need to allow choice.

12. The Faculty noted that the paper was written from an economic perspective and did not take account of possible considerations relating to the interests of justice and possible conflicts of interest. The key issues from the Faculty's perspective were :

  • the formation of LDPs with senior counsel as members could have the effect of foreclosing a market and the potential to create conflicts of interest; and
  • the issue of how LDPs should be regulated and by whom would have to be resolved; would advocates practising individually who joined an LDP become subject to regulation by the Law Society of Scotland for example ?

13. The Executive asked whether more work was planned on the paper or whether work could start on integrating the analysis into the Group's final report. Professor Stephen confirmed that further work was not possible in the absence of empirical evidence. He emphasised that the key question was whether the availability of certain advocacy services was so concentrated that the introduction of LDPs including experienced practitioners would foreclose the market. Insufficient information was available however to allow existing degrees of specialisation in the advocacy market to be assessed. OFT observed that where there were limited numbers of practitioners in certain areas of law, this could be classified as a merger with a concentrated market, but alternative methods to rectify the situation existed in the former of merger controls. Such situations would be dealt with on a case by case basis.

14. The Scottish Consumer Council (SCC) suggested that a more detailed examination of the ownership issue was needed to ensure standards were upheld, as this was a key public concern. It was not clear how the LDP would be regulated as a business without the individuals working in the LDP also being regulated as individual practitioners. The Society agreed that the issue of ownership was crucial. If economic analysis suggested that LDPs should be permitted, the Society saw the regulatory overlay as the key issue to be resolved, and noted that the issue required more consideration, possibly in a forum other than the research working group. The Executive agreed that the issue of ownership and regulation needed more reflection.

First draft of the final report

15. The Group discussed the first draft of the final report and agreed that general discussion at the meeting should be augmented by detailed written comments. The Executive noted that the first draft of the report contained no new material for the Group, with the exception of parts of Chapters 1 and 3. The main change was that the lengthy paper on professional rules had been split between 6 chapters. There was a significant amount of new material still to be added, including the analysis contained in Professor Stephen's paper on LDPs, a section on feeing arrangements, and the Auditor of Court research. The final chapter had still to be written. In line with the Executive's publication policy, recent papers would not appear on the Executive website as they would be incorporated directly into the final report. References in the first draft to 'majority views' would be replaced with views attributed to representative bodies.

16. The SCC thought that the report should explain why it did not include any analysis of complaints handling arrangements and that these were the subject of a separate consultation exercise. The Executive agreed the report should make the position clear. The SCC also noted that the report analysed professional rules at some length, but did not contain any assessment of whether existing regulatory structures were appropriate or of the respective merits of self regulation, co-regulation or independent regulation. The issue of current structures was reflected in Chapter 2, but in descriptive rather than analytical terms.

17. Professor Stephen took a different view to SCC and thought that the Group had looked at how legal markets functioned, and whether existing rules interfered with the operation of the market in a way that was contrary to public interest. The Society agreed with Professor Stephen that a review of models of regulatory framework would go beyond the Group's remit, which was to look at the extent to which current rules interfered with the operation of the market for legal services. SCC clarified that it did not intend that the Group's remit be extended, but wanted it made clear to readers of the report that the issue of the regulatory and representative functions of the legal profession were being addressed.

18. The Executive noted the SCC concerns and thought there might be a case for a second phase of the Group's work, which looked specifically at Clementi and regulation, but there were other ways too in which that agenda could be taken forward. The response to the imminent public consultation on complaints handling arrangements would also have some relevance to that agenda.

19. The Faculty questioned whether the Group's role was to make recommendations in the final report, as in its view that was outwith the original remit, and the specific purposes and aims. The Faculty believed that the remit required the Group to set out current rules and debate advantages and disadvantages, but not to give a majority view on these rules. The Executive noted this point, and referred back to their preliminary comments in introducing the paper : references to majority views would be taken out and views would be attributed to members. The Executive saw the report as an evidence base for future policy formulation.

20. The Faculty welcomed this approach, and preferred views to be made attributable to members of the group. SCC felt the conclusions at the end of each chapter helped provide a summary of the issues and welcomed reporting of their views. Professor Stephen was uncomfortable with the use of the word 'conclusions', and suggested replacing it with 'summaries' of each member group's arguments or views on the different issues covered.

21. The Executive expressed concern at the possibility of giving undue emphasis to opinion, as the report was intended to be a research based piece of work looking for evidence. They agreed that members should be given the opportunity to have their views recorded however. If conclusions were to be taken out, SCC confirmed that they would want to put in their views on all issues, but noted that the remit included an express commitment to evaluate whether restrictions were proportionate to their purpose. SCC thought that each individual member should be able to make an evaluation, and have that evaluation reported as in their view the Group's role was not simply to identify empirical evidence. The Executive thought that some topics lent themselves to evaluative conclusions, while others did not.

22. The Faculty emphasised its concern that the final report should adhere to the Group's remit, and that if the report was to include recommendations, those recommendations should reflect consideration of where the interests of justice lay in any situation. OFT thought it would be important to ascertain whether all members of the Group wished to express their views in the report.

23. Dr Morrison explained the Group's remit had set out expressly that the purpose of the research was to provide an evidence base for future policy consideration of competition issues. This should involve drawing conclusions from the evidence available at this stage. The Executive undertook to take away and consider the views of the Group on this issue.

24. The Executive noted that the report still required a lot of thought and detailed input and had circulated paper RWG/7/3 to identify matters on which written comments from the Group would be very useful. The following were highlighted :

  • pages 24 and 32: comments for Dr Morrison were indicated.
  • page 34: brief written comments were invited.
  • page 36: The discussion on recommendations/conclusions in the report. The Executive would reflect on the approach.
  • page 38 Legal Professional Privilege. The Society commented that this would need more reflection as a result of the 3 Rivers case.
  • page 44 As above The group would need to reflect on mixed doubles.
  • page 61. The Group were asked to comment on whether a separate chapter was needed on MDPs.

25. The Executive noted that the issue of the title of QC needed to be flagged for further action in Chapter 10. OFT suggested that Chapter 11 was one of the areas where a consensus on the need for commencement had been reached by the Group. The Faculty pointed out that it held no particular views on the issue which had not been considered in any depth by the Faculty. The Executive confirmed that the decision would be for Ministers and that further interviews had been carried out which would be reflected in the next draft.

27. The Group were invited to send the Executive written comments on the points set out in paper RWG 2005/7/3 by 18 April. Mrs Macniven then asked the Group to consider next steps, in particular (i) completion of the current piece of work, and (ii) whether the Group should reconvene at a later stage to think about a further phase of work on wider issues to be considered, such as Clementi proposals. The Society commented that they shared the SCC view that more work was required in future, but agreed that the current phase should be drawn to a conclusion soon, particularly in the light of media and public interest in the outcome.

28. SCC asked the Group to consider the best process for taking forward work, and asked whether there was to be consensus building on common areas to explore. SCC wondered whether the Working Group was necessarily the best way to explore the larger issues in Phase 2: the Group needed to be clear what work still required to be done, and how this should be carried out. The Executive agreed that there was a need for the Group to debate how future work should be carried out. The aim was to present the report to Ministers at the end of June. The Executive suggested that the next meeting of 23 May should be extended to 3 hours to allow for a fuller discussion of the report. SCC asked whether it was in fact possible for that meeting to be the last, as any comments raised would need to be considered by the Group. Dr Morrison also confirmed that the research into Auditors of Court should be completed, but indicated that although the research on advocacy services was underway, it was unlikely to be completed in time for 23 May. The paper on feeing arrangements would also have to be incorporated. The Society expressed doubt that the Group would be able to sign off the report at the next meeting.

29. It was agreed that another meeting should be scheduled in case further issues were raised. The Executive undertook to arrange a meeting in mid to late June.

Scottish Executive Justice Department
April 2005

SUMMARY OF ACTION POINTS

Oral report on Auditor of Court Research

1. Legal Studies Research Team to write up findings on the Auditor of Court research for the next meeting.

RWG 2005/7/1 Legal Disciplinary Practice

2. The Executive to integrate paper RWG 2005/7/1 into the final report.

3. The Executive to consider the best forum for future discussion of the issue of ownership and regulation of LDPs.

Discussion of first draft of final report

4. The Group to provide comments on the first draft of the final report and on those points raised in paper RWG 2005/7/3 by 18 April.

5. The Executive to remove references to majority views and attribute comments wherever possible to members of the Group.

6. The Executive to amend the draft report to make clear that the issue of complaints handling was being addressed in its forthcoming consultation paper.

7. The Executive to indicate in the report that the title of QC was an area for further action in Chapter 10.

8. The Group to consider whether to reconvene at a later stage to think about a further phase of work on wider issues to be considered, such as Clementi proposals.

Any other business

9. The Executive to arrange a meeting for the Group in June.

Any comments on the note should be sent to:

Carole Johnston
Legal Services Policy Team
Access to Justice Division
The Scottish Executive Justice Department
Second Floor West
St Andrew's House
Regent Road
Edinburgh
EH1 3DG

Page updated: Monday, June 6, 2005