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Chapter Seven Enterprise in Education Staff comments and views
Note: in some cases schools had not identified Senior Management Teachers who would be or were responsible for enterprise in education. Where they had we were able to interview them and in some cases we interviewed SMTs who were at some level linked to enterprise in education.
The enterprise in education staff were asked a range of questions and were asked to comment on the positive and negative aspects of part-time work. The responses overlap with those provided by the HTs and the PTs and due to time constraints will not be repeated.
The main focus of this section is on the interview sections which dealt with:
- the impact of part-time work on enterprising attitudes and behaviours
- the impact on work experience programme
- responses to principle of using part-time work in enterprise in education and exploring how this might be done
The impact of part-time work on enterprising attitudes and behaviours
For some of the enterprise in education teachers the potential impact of part-time work on enterprising attitudes/behaviours was something that they had clearly not considered. In part this might be related to existing attitudes towards part-time employment as the following comment suggests:
'To be honest, I've never thought about it, about that connection, my impression of the educator's point of view of part-time work was that it was a distraction, it's interesting to see the focus of this research is actually trying to bring that round.'
Other staff implied that part-time work would have little impact because of the motivation of the pupils:
'I would find it difficult to answer that……I wouldn't say we have a host of kids coming out saying that they want to be the next Richard Branson……they see either university, apprenticeship or tourist industry or the fish farm or something……they don't see a gap in the industry there……I would say they don't have much of an enterprising…'
In contrast some of the interviewees were more positive about the potential impact of part-time work on enterprise attitudes and behaviours as the following quotes suggest:
'I think it's quite often looking at basic skills like working with others, sometimes it's literacy and numeracy, communications and working with others and it may even be things like problem solving…if they are working in a hotel and dealing with the public or waiting at tables. Tourism is so important in Scotland but yet some of the hotels are going out the way to employ Australians because we don't have the interpersonal skills, these things are difficult to measure but I think they are important.'
The same teacher went on to add:
'It helps them in their own personal social development but also for employability.'
One interviewee appeared to be initially dismissive of the potential impact but then as they expanded their idea they began to suggest some potential links:
'No I don't think so…I don't think they bring it back in with them. What it might do is that the kids say in S4 the kids who do have part-time jobs tend to be slightly more mature in their attitude towards certain things. That comes across quite often...just in generally in the school, they are probably more used to dealing with adults in a different context so therefore their social kills will be a wee bit stronger and more relaxed about dealing with an adult member of staff for example.'
Expanding this idea they added:
'They are more used to being around adults...therefore that makes it much more easy for them to deal with teachers. A lot of them are much more likely to get involved in other aspects of the school...they do take a bit more social responsibility for example those that I know who do have part-time jobs or evening jobs and whether it's simply an ability to make best use of their time quite often they are able to get involved with younger pupils of charitable events.'
As a supplementary question the enterprise in education staff were asked about the impact of part-time work on career intentions. The responses suggested that the staff ascribe a specific motivation underlying a pupil's part-time work and that any career impact is secondary:
'……… [Pupils] are doing it mostly for the money, ultimately they might see it that they are doing it for experience in some kind of way, it's certainly the kind of jobs they are doing they don't see as their future career to a large extent although there are exceptions to that.'
Another member of staff expressed a similar view:
'………a lot of them it'll just be money, any job would be better than none and therefore it's a way of earning money and its got no real part of their plan for where they go afterwards.'
One enterprise in education person suggested that the issue is one of individual differences:
'A lot depends on the individual we had examples of pupils that I do know who did say for example work experience in the school with say a particular industry or company and proceeded from that to university or college and then have gone into that profession themselves. But I think that tends to come from kids who have a very strong vocational attitude right from the start, they have a good idea of what they want even say from 4th year onwards and they will take that onwards. A couple of cases that I know after they did their work experience as a result of their work experience they managed to get part-time work with the company and then gone on back after they've finished their qualifications…they've used the contacts that they've made……'
The above example is interesting since it draws attention to the interplay between work experience, part-time employment and career intentions. However, if we accept the member of staff's interpretation this is not common and will depend on the individual. It does lead us into the next section where we consider the responses of staff to impact of part-time work on work experience.
The impact on work experience programme
The general pattern of responses suggests that there is no or little interplay between work experience and part-time employment. When asked about the impact of part-time work on work experience one interviewee stated:
'It doesn't'
And added:
'Everyone in 4 th year gets a work placement whether they've got part-time work or not'
This distinction between part-time work and work experience was evident in some other comments:
'Our work experience has features……that we want everyone possible to be involved in work experience….there are some kids who do not wish to take part so what we have is a world of work experience…..kids who tend to get their 3 rd choice rather than their first choice quite often aren't very keen to take it up so therefore they would rather opt out. Some kids have this glamour idea of the world of work….. they discover they hate the job they've taken or put down for…'
One enterprise in education interviewee drew a clear distinction between work experience and part-time work:
'Work experience more related to a future desire or at least an experience, it's something they thought they might like, very often the value of work experience is that it teaches them that it's not something they want to do with their lives, it's more focused more directed to what they want to do in their careers, whereas the part-time jobs I'm aware of it's a way of earning money but there may be by-products.'
In the general discussions that we had with staff one enterprise in education interviewee made a general statement that appears to reflect their view on issues which impact on the overlap between the EinE initiative, careers, part-time work and work experience:
'One of the problems with Scottish education…is the fact that kids don't often see transferable skills between subjects and that would also apply to the world of work, they would not necessarily bring in…they see the home divorced from the school, from the world of work and one of the problems I think is building bridges between these so that they can realise that something they learn...can equally apply back in a subject context or a curricular context back in school.'
The above comment is interesting and clearly applies to the challenge of integrating what are perceived as distinct domains.
Responses to principle of using part-time work in enterprise in education and exploring how this might be done
Initially staff were asked about the principle of using part-time employment within enterprise in education. In at least one case this was met with a positive response:
'Yes, without a doubt, I think it's potentially a very positive aspect, it has the potential of turning what we see as a negative into a positive but I think we would have to get parents on our side on that one and we have to take them with us.'
This view was shared by other staff who then started to add caveats to their comments:
'I think the principle would definitely be (good)…….just the actual workings of it.'
The same member of staff added:
'Half the class would be saying we haven't got a part-time job.'
And:
'Yes, but I think it would be a very, very hard job to, to put something in place, especially if you look at the figures…you're talking about 400 to 500 kids there that you would be trying to organise something with and pick out which one and which one wasn't.'
PTs were asked how they would envision this working in practice. A range of comments highlight the possible examples and potential problems. For example:
'I suppose within PSE lessons if you could distinguish between worked and non-workers, you could get them...building up to write CV's and stuff like that is to sit down and say what kind of things do you do at your work what kind of skills do you have to have to be able to do that.'
'Probably through PSE would be the best way of if you were doing guidance interviews, 'cause then you would get away from the problem of workers and non-worked and you wouldn't have timetabling problems with which ones did and didn't work.'
Another interviewee introduced the employer issue:
'I think big employers would find it easier (building bridges with education) in an area like this where there is high unemployment the shortage of small scale employment and plus the fact with the legislative restrictions on them offering work placements or necessary insurance cover all the legal restrictions and health and safety issues - all of the those things make it difficult. One of the things that would be good would be to have a link between a secondary school and say a major employer, there could almost be a two way transfer.'
For some the question about how this would work in practice was an opportunity to focus on potential problems:
'They [the pupils] just perceive it just as their pocket money so it might be a different target, so within certain areas it might be those who want to go into that in the long term. How do you sell that?'
An additional concern for this interviewee was the issue of equality:
'It could be a problem if employers are valuing certificated work placements of some sort and they don't have a work placement. That's encouraging more of them to do after school work.'
In exploring this issue we asked the enterprise in education staff to comment on how part-time work might link to enterprise in education. The interviewees responded in a variety of ways to this question. For one the links were not being made at present:
'At the moment certainly we don't draw on any of the skill, we don't draw on them in any structured or formal way……it's certainly not something I've ever considered about how do we tap into their experiences that they have outside of the school in terms of employment, but certainly it's something we could do.'
The same interviewee then went on to provide an example based on their experience:
'Quite often when we're sitting having a discussion about say in modern studies employment opportunities kids will bring in something to bear.. a girl was pointing out that she works in a hairdressers at the weekend and she thinks she's paid below the minimum wage so that then generated a discussion……that was brought out in the context of me teaching a subject it wasn't consciously being brought in the context of enterprise but it is something that could be brought in more.'
For another interviewee the link with enterprise was about understanding the world of work:
'It's all about understanding what the world of work is all about, so if they can understand the importance of being on time the importance of the structure of what they are doing in the work.'
The interviewee provided some context to their comment which clearly reflected an awareness of the geographical location that they functioned in:
'It's really to do with the tourist industry and to do with marketing … it comes down to what makes a successful tourist area, what makes a successful hotel, what makes a successful restaurant and what you find is that generally it's the attitude of your staff and if our kids learning that, that not just to be successful within my work I have to be open, polite and courteous and when I talk to people I am open with and building up interpersonal skills. I think that's an important thing for a kid to learn if they are doing part-time work is the building up of that interpersonal skill.'
In response to this question about linkage one enterprise in education interviewee highlighted a more practical concern. This was that staff would need materials that would allow them to develop such links:
'I think departments would definitely welcome packages which they could use which they could customize, which wouldn't need too much work, that would help.'
The interview covered a wide range of topics. However, there was some variation in the questions asked. This reflected the semi-structured nature of the interview and the agendas of the interviewees. We focus on some common questions that were addressed to the majority of the enterprise in education staff. First, what external links they have within the enterprise in education curriculum and, second, what they perceive to be the main factors that would help or hinder the increased use of part-time employment experiences in school.
(i) External links
The responses to this question showed that there were a variety of ways in which schools were developing links with bodies outside of school. For example:
'The physics and chemistry departments have trips to the [x], the aluminium smelter and I think most of the links that we do have are more departmental based rather than whole school based...the biology department and fish farms, it would be more that kind of way rather than a whole school type thing.'
In another part of the interview the same interviewee had provided another example:
'We've got a hospitality taster that we are supposed to do every year where a group of 5 th and 6 th years go out to a local hotel and do stuff to do with bookings, kitchens, waitressing……other than that there's not that much that we do ……there's a travel and tourism module which we do through the geography department and I would assume they have contacts in some way …'
Another interviewee indicated that they also used visits to business premises:
'We had a higher craft and design class and it wasn't done specifically through careers but they went out and had a visit to [furniture superscore] in Edinburgh...for the 8 to 10 kids that would have had more of an impact than bringing someone in from [furniture superstore] to talk about design or the career aspects of design.'
There is no indication that this happens all the time, however, the interviewee did add that:
'We have speakers coming in, we've had people coming in from insurance, people in from banking, the big financial areas coming in to provide talks.'
One other interviewee's response to this question indicated that there external links did not involve direct contact with employers:
'Youngsters involved in the shares for school scheme.' And:
'Links with local college, no certificates just a taster'
(ii) Factors that would help/hinder making increased use of part-time employment experiences in school
One interviewee drew attention to the need to address the employer within this discussion. From their perspective employers have a different agenda and linking with schools is not necessarily a high priority:
'I think there's a number of things, I suspect that a lot of employers see their role as their own company development rather than linking in with schools its almost a kind of demarcation, I've got my role you've got yours, I suspect that's maybe changing ……'
An additional concern for this interviewee was that if this area were to be developed it would result in the need for staff development. This would need to be supplemented by support for teachers and employers.
The school context was the focus of another interviewee who was concerned about the limited resources of time and space with respect to the school curriculum.
'The school day and the curriculum is finite, people are wary of new initiatives coming which sometimes don't last and a huge amount of time and effort. If you think about TVI years ago. You can get some staff who are quite for it, other staff who'll say yes but give me the materials……you were talking about a three-pronged approach that's good 'cause it means you can dip in to it in certain different ways.'
Models
Finally, some enterprise in education staff were asked about the models. This was not specified in the interview schedule therefore not all interviewees were asked about the models. It is also evident that unlike the PTs and HTs the models were not always discussed in detail. For this reason the summary of comments below has a different structure from the PTs and HTs section.
For one of the enterprise in education interviewees the models were perceived as 'interesting'. For this interviewee there was a clear preference for Models 4 and 5 since they were linked to personal planning and in the case of Model 5 includes some assessment of progression. However, Model 1 caused some consternation:
'All very interesting, one of them did fill me with horror and that was the first one, the full embedding in the curriculum.'
And:
'Is model one there to make you think the other ones are not too bad?'
For this individual any process of integrating part-time work into educational settings must be based on an opt-in principle, it cannot be compulsory. Rather he suggests that there is what we might think of as a 'hearts and minds' battle to be fought first of all. This is reflected in the following comments:
'I think raising the profile of it [part-time work] is important for teachers in terms of raising the status as a possible contributory factor to a profile or a reference……'
And:
'I think we suffer from a lot of baggage about part-time work because of what its been previously associated with and the type of pupils its been associated with and that's where the negative aspect comes in.'
In this context Model 3 may be a future aspiration. Commenting on Model 3:
'…yeah, its the formal recognition of it, I just feel that's a step ahead, I think maybe after some years of the other models being in place you could possibly move to that if the less formal ones are operating successfully.'
However, this interview also drew attention to some concerns regarding the issue of recognition in general. These revolve around concerns for making anything compulsory, the issue of non-workers and, lastly, the issue of failing to pass any assessment linked to work:
'I'm not sure making anything compulsory is the way to do it, I think that detracts from it.'
'…… it begs the question what about the children who don't do part-time work.'
'It's a bit like the argument to certify PSE, if you fail your PSE certificate what does that say about you? Similarly failing your part-time work whatever ……'
The preference for personal planning emerged in the discussions with another enterprise in education interviewee. Their preference was for Models 2, 4 and 5. The justification for this position is reflected in the following comments:
'Part-time work gives them that chance to realise to give them that responsibility, to raise their self confidence, to give them an awareness of what the world of work is all about, to make them realise that if they are part of a team then they have to pull their weight. So as far as personal planning is concerned I would say recognition of part-time work and personal planning ……'
'I think that idea of personal planning contributes to their progression is important…what in actual fact are they gaining from their employment ……'
'Model 2 the transferable skill where it's looking at the core skills, core skills being working with others and problem solving, IT communication, numeracy ….. so a combination of models 2,4 and 5.'
An alternative view was expressed by another interviewee. For them Model 3 was viewed positively, however, the rationale for this was that:
'…… it would open employers eyes to what kids can offer'
This interviewee also had a positive attitude to Models 4 and 5 in part because it would make young people more aware of what they were gaining from work. This interviewee is concerned about the lack of insight that young people have regarding their skills and the implication of skills for the future.
This interviewee suggests that Models 3, 4 and 5 are inter-related and could be put together in some sort of programme. It is worth noting that for this person there is a need to address the employer in all of this. The employers will need educated and given guidance about any new process including what makes an acceptable report.
While it was common to find PTs raising workload issues in their discussion of the different models only one of the enterprise in education interviewees referred to this:
'This sounds like an increase to my job specification and that is immediately an issue, the more that, if something new comes along and it's going to involve adding to the work that has to be done then unless there is additional time given for it then that is a no-no. I can see it having benefits for the youngsters if they, in a sense if it formalises what they already have, if it draws it into some sort of useful piece of paper.'
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