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Chapter Six Principal Teacher comments and views
The PTs focus groups covered a range of issues and in this section we focus on:
- Attitudes to part-time work - their own and the schools
- Awareness and use of part-time work in school
- Views on the models
Attitudes to part-time work
Many of the issues raised by the PTs revolved around the potential costs and benefits of part-time work to young people. The points noted with respect to costs/benefits of work overlap with the HTs list in the previous section.
However, there are some distinct aspects of the PTs comments that we should note. When looking at the advantages of part-time work the PTs did emphasise the contrast between the work place and school. Some of them indicated that the benefit of work was that it exposed pupils to different types of relationships with adults and these contrasted with the teacher-pupil roles in school:
'the relationship they get with adults they don't get in school, the way they treat adults is totally different' .
Other PTs identified the learning potential from part-time work. In some cases they linked this to a core skills agenda where it is suggested that employment provides opportunities to learn how to interact with other people in a professional capacity and contributes to confidence, social skills and maturity. In one group the idea was expressed that work '…… can benefit them hugely and… learn a lot that's difficult to teach them in school'.
The main problems that PTs noted were ones that the HTs had raised, namely the impact on school work. They noted the need for balance between work and school. The comments provided expand on this to suggest that for a number of PTs the solution to maintaining a balance should be to limit work to the week-ends, control the hours that are worked and ensure that employers adopt a more responsible attitude. In the latter case a number of the comments suggest that employers are not providing training or attending to the need for school pupils to balance work and school:
'……… what I also notice is that towards exam time the pupils who are wanting to succeed chuck the part-time job and also a number of them are put under severe pressure by their employers to turn up and do shifts which is definitely detrimental to their work, and there's one local employer (a supermarket) in particular who is shameless in demanding they work late at night knowing fine well that they have school the next day. But they are over 16 and their choice is basically work these hours or lose your job.'
In contrast in another school one of the PTs suggested that the employers in the area adopted a different attitude:
'There have been traditionally in …… some very good employers who have said they are quite happy for you to work with us, hoteliers, at the weekend during the week you will work with us one night only, will not allow you any more often than that 'cause you've got your homework to do, and the employers have actually taken that position.'
Another position taken by some of the PTs was to suggest that work was alright for some but not all pupils. This manifested itself on two ways. First, some PTs suggested that younger pupils should not work:
'I think part-time employment can be very good in maybe not 4 th year, but in 5 th and 6 th year, they can mix schoolwork and part-time employment if they have an understanding employer and I think it's good for them to see that that's they way to succeed if they are going to university they have to sort out their priorities. But it has to be a mixture of parental involvement and making sure that everything is going well with school and work.'
Second, for some PTs a distinction was drawn between the academically able and less able pupils. The implication for some is that the latter group could afford to, and should possibly be encouraged, to work:
'I think it's really a bad idea for academically motivated pupils to try and balance school with work, but I think it's an extremely important idea to employ it with pupils that are non-academic because the curriculum as it stands …… is just not right for these kids.' And….. 'They need a curriculum which is supportive of a workplace environment.'
Another PT commented:
'Some of them who don't perform well academically are brilliant in their work situation because they are doing something they want and for a reward at the end of the day.'
For other PTs the problem is that weaker pupils are the ones who are working:
'I'm concerned that very often it's not our most able group, the ones very focused on their work (schoolwork) tend to be the ones that don't over work because they want to go to university and to jeopardise their chances'
There are some suggestions that part-time work could be linked to vocational aspects of education:
'I would see it (part-time work) working alongside some kind of vocational training.'
'If you could find a way of tying in part-time work to meet certain criteria like the outcomes for a work experience module it would be superb.'
In contrast another PT commented:
'Very little of it would be linked to vocational stuff that they would do after school … just transient to get quick money … very few of them would work in a part-time job that would lead them on afterwards to permanent employment.'
Finally when looking at the PTs comments on their views about part-time work some raised concerns about the level of control and regulation of such employment. In some cases this was expressed by reference to 'exploitation' of young workers or by some more general reference such as:
'There are kids up here doing a lot of hours in miserable conditions'
Others were more specific in their comments:
'We know that a lot of local employers do not abide by the law and you often feel that kids are being exploited to some degree. They miss all sorts of things, they miss extra-curricular things ……'
'Something has to be done about the number of hours that some children are working, perhaps pressure put on parents or something like that…a lot of our first and second years have jobs working in fish sheds, one of them works in a fish shed till 9 o'clock at night in freezing cold conditions gutting fish.'
Another commented:
'A kid having a part-time job has the potential to be extremely beneficial but it's not managed or controlled as rigorously as it needs to be…it needs more rigorous regulation if it's going to meet our requirements of providing social development and personal development and not interfere with schooling.'
In addition to providing their views on part-time work the PTs were asked to indicate if they thought that the school had a particular attitude to such work. The response from the majority of PT groups was that there was no specific policy, or that this type of issue was dealt with at an individual pupil level if problems arose. For example:
'I've got a feeling that the school is actually, that the school has an attitude of laissez faire unless there's a negative impact that can be proved…I think the school just allows it. I don't think they encourage kids to go and find part-time work but I don't think they discourage it either.'
Another PT commented:
'I think it's something senior management would discuss with a parent if a parent was called in about lack of effort….'
In some cases PTs indicated that their school may be sending out mixed messages about work:
'The headteacher keeps talking about far too many people working part-time and then he sticks up notices about part-time jobs, I think, I don't think they've got a consistency of approach towards what the school policy is on part-time work and study.'
In the same group meeting another PT commented:
'In the school, I don't know whether the others have noticed but there are adverts up for [fast food outlet] and things and I am against it being advertised in school, because I think if people see those in school apply for the job …see the job in school, we can hardly say … we're endorsing it…I think we're ruining young people's chance by encouraging them to do that kind of work.'
Other PT's comments suggest that they think the school should adopt a stronger position on part-time work. The following comments reflect some aspects of this position:
'I've sometimes been very surprised that the school never seems to invoke the powers that it has to some extent in terms of ensuring that pupils who are overstretched are not employed for very long hours. There are kids getting in all sorts of trouble, it could be used as a sanction in some ways but it never is.'
'There's no whole-school policy towards it just individuals (guidance teachers) expressing their own genuine felt concerns.'
'There's no guidelines for those over 16 for the number of hours they should work'
The implications of such statements suggest that for some PTs their school should be adopting a more pro-active stance on this aspect of pupils' lives. One reason that schools may not attend to this aspect of young people's lives is that they are unaware of it. Awareness of part-time work was explored with the PTs in two ways, first, asking them about their knowledge of pupils work status and secondly the extent to which the school uses the experience of part-time work in and educational context.
Awareness and use of part-time work in school
PTs indicated that at a global school level they are unaware of how many pupils work. However, they are aware in some cases about individual pupils work status. This knowledge tends to arise from a specific staff role in school, eg guidance or pastoral care, or from pupils who are having attendance or educational problems.
'As a tutor teacher I know from a tutor group a few of the pupils who are working in that just because part of that remit is getting to know the kids a wee bit better, so we informally chat to them. Within my tutor group there are 5 th years whose attendance has dropped off because they've almost got a job they're not legal age to leave but they've got a job and their attendance has been affected, a few concerns about that.'
'The main way I would know is dealing with pupils who say they haven't done the work they needed to do because they were working.'
'I generally only find out that a child has a part-time job if they tell me because I've said you seem a bit tired this morning and they say oh I was up at five doing the milk…or a child is sent to me because they've not been doing their homework and I'll ask them why that's the case and they'll say well I was in [supermarket] for three hours last night.'
It should be noted that the lack of awareness is not due to pupils 'hiding' their work status. A number of comments made by the PTs indicated that pupils are very open about working when asked. In some cases staff see their own pupils working in the shops that they use.
While awareness of work status is relatively low, or in some cases gained in an ad hoc manner, there is some evidence that part-time work is currently used in a number of class settings. In the focus groups PTs were asked about the extent to which part-time work is referred to in class settings.
In all of the PT focus groups there were some positive examples provided of classes which mentioned, or drew upon, part-time work. PTs referred to a range of classes when citing examples including: PSE, Maths, English and Modern Studies. The following comments were made:
'In enterprise and business studies and also via links with employers where they can get stock from or financial advice for the enterprise projects.'
'We talk about it a lot in PSE, about core skills or careers and talking about transferable skills and employability as well, also when they are organising work experience.'
'In the maths curriculum certainly there are whole exercises about earning money in terms of part-time jobs, about earning commission we teach the kids about time and a half and double time, clocking in, clocking off.'
'I'm in business management and yes I can draw on their personal experiences, for example this morning I was doing health and safety legislation with them and I was drawing on various experiences.'
The PTs also suggest that there is some similarity in the way that part-time employment and work experience are used within classes. They indicate that work experience is drawn upon in the classroom, or rather in certain types of classes:
'All 4 th years go for a weeks work experience if we're looking at a topic in the standard grade syllabus like unemployment, you can talk about industries declining etc you can relate that to jobs that they've done..'
In response to this set of questions one response provides some insight into the approach of the PTs:
'I think any good teacher would ask has anyone got any experience in this area, try to draw from the kid's experience.'
However, it seems clear that there are no existing examples of part-time work being used systematically, or embedded in any way, into any educational setting. Some of the PTs provided answers that suggest that the nature of pupils' part-time employment would constrain the educational use that could be made of the experience:
'Many jobs are below the standard of education they are at, for example waitressing at the [x] hotel doesn't really take someone with higher maths or English to do.'
'I'm trying to think, but most of the jobs around here, most of the jobs the kids are doing round here………they're mostly shelf stacking and working in the sinks.'
'There's such a limited range of part-time work available here I think that's one of the big constraints.'
We also need to note that some PTs expressed positive views about the principle of using part-time work within school settings, however, they did add caveats:
'I think it could be worthwhile definitely but I would be a wee bit wary about it being mandatory for all pupils because it might not be suited to them…it could be very useful but it could act negatively if it's not tailored to the individual or if it's seen as mandatory or the individual doesn't want to do it. I think there are a lot of advantages to be had for certain pupils.'
'It's a bridge between education and work and it may be that for certain pupils for whom useful education in the school sense is finished at an earlier age, who previously may have left school at 15 or 14 who need a bridge to get them into employment...I think that could be of benefit to the pupils……. and less burdened by the pupils who have reached their academic sell by date as it were.'
Other PTs placed more emphasis on the potential problems in trying to pay more attention to part-time in the school setting:
'It's tricky because the kids who have part-time jobs…….. tend to be the kids who have reached a stage where they are working towards specific qualifications which have a very rigid syllabus. We can't just put things into that, I'm thinking of my own subject and if kids are working towards say higher English there's nothing, or very little you can put into that that's going to tie into their work.'
'There's nothing in the syllabus that matches the experience of filling shelves in [supermarket]'
'I wouldn't like to see it being made more formal because the demands on teaching staff at the moment are such that this would create another monster to be managed by them and who would manage it, who would be responsible for ensuring that whatever the pupils have to be given credit for they have actually done and how you liaise with employers.'
The latter comment is clearly reflecting a PT who is concerned about the potential method used when drawing part-time work into the curriculum. As such this takes us neatly into the PTs views on the models.
Views on the models
It is worth noting that across all of the models few positive statements made by the PTs. An underlying concern was with the practical consequences of placing new systems on top of an existing curriculum, where space is already at a premium.
Model 1
Positive comments:
In one of the PT groups it was noted that this model may have some value with respect to core skills. It is not clear from the tape what is meant by this but one possible interpretation is that Model 1 may increase awareness of behaviour and thus raise levels of awareness with respect to core skills.
Negative comments:
The least negative comment regarding this model was that some PTs were of the view that this model is already in existence since they do talk about work and have discussions with pupils in S3 and S4. Other PTs were more concerned about the issue of syllabus inserts.
For these PTs syllabus inserts appear to be a distraction in that they take time away from 'what we're trying to teach'. For others the inserts could only be included at the expense of some other aspect of the syllabus. The pressure of time to get through the course means that you cannot add new material without losing some existing content.
For other PTs the administration and organization of such a system would 'be a nightmare' and hence reduces the appeal of the model:
'Syllabus inserts are dreadful, what they do is they disturb what's going on by taking time out of this place or that place.'
Caveats:
The pressure on the curriculum was raised by some groups as a concern:
'You're talking to a group of people who would love to be proactive in providing young people with the real experience the real opportunities but not while we've got a tight a curriculum as we have….'
'It's back to time, too great an expectation on the knowledge based learning…'
'A curriculum review that allowed greater flexibility, more opportunities for vocational training would be wonderful…..'
In addition, a number of PTs raised concerns about equality of treatment since not all young people have, or can gain access to, part-time work. The implication is that they would be disadvantaged. This concern recurs in the discussions about a number of the models. In contrast others acknowledged the range of jobs that young people do and suggested that this may in fact be problematic. The question being raised by them is how to share everyone's experience in the limited space.
Model 2
Positive:
In at least one PT group some individuals were attracted to this model. The justification for this position is reflected in the quotes below:
'…… that's the one where we would maybe have a unit we already have the enterprise module which has become…. it's… young enterprise and its for a small number of kids but I think for the pupils that do that it's very valuable. If we can get something like the employability skills as a stand alone unit that teachers were trained up to teach and maybe the 6 th years could fit into their timetable, then it might not impact on everybody.'
'Number 2 as well because it could be a voluntary unit for senior pupils and that makes it workable.'
Some other PTs suggested that this model is already working and that there are schemes like this already around. However, they did not provide any further information to justify this position.
For some the idea that this model has a 'stand alone' quality to it make it preferable to Model 1. It appears that this model is more workable because it does not have the problem of linking it to the curriculum.
Negative comments:
Some PTs clearly have a view that the type of work that their pupils do is limited. These limitations raise questions about how you would use it within educational settings:
'Difficult to see the core skills you would extract from filling shelves in [supermarket] or scrubbing pots.'
'The nature of the work here is so limited that you would question whether it had sufficient value to take them out of school time for it.'
Caveats:
The issue of equality was raised and the pressure on the curriculum. With respect to the latter, anything that is added needs to be compensated for by dropping something from the present curriculum.
One interesting comment is the role of employers was raised with respect to this model. For at least one PT this model would require employers to provide feedback to the school and assess their employees. Based upon this requirement the PT suggested that this model would require employers to opt-in to it.
Model 3
Positive comments:
'Seems far more concrete. Pupils need to feel this is where I'm heading and this is what I get if I achieve this. There's some mileage in this, it's related to the curriculum and both school and employers would have an input to the structure and assessment of it.'
Within the same PT group a related comment was made:
'I think there would be a lot of support for a programme which gets pupils work conscious and employment conscious and skill conscious in terms of practical skills in the workplace...we take more and more people staying on to 6 th year and by the time some of them have got into 6 th year some of them have lost the impetus and desire to go out and do practical things.'
In one other PT group the advantage of this model was that it would replace work experience.
Negative comments:
A list of concerns were raised with respect to this model including: not all pupils work, employers would have to opt-in to it, the type of job may impact on certification, young people would not want the school interfering in this aspect of their lives, increases pressure on children to get jobs, and finally the issues of recording and assessing this activity.
Caveats
Amongst the qualifications PTs added to their comments were that this model would require staff training if they were to be involved in this:
'Would require training of staff - fully versed in learning outcomes, criteria, standardisation, moderation procedures.'
Other PTs comments made during the focus group were of a more general nature but are relevant to this model:
'I think there's a similar analogy that you've had with the practical subjects and that is that you've ruined them, you no longer cook in home economics you write about cooking…it's assessment, assessment, it's writing, their losing the practical skills and the moment you do that with work experience you'll lose the benefit of it.'
'It would depend what the certification would be if they are going to be transferable skills, if you got a grade for communication, written and spoken communication then that could be applicable to a wide range of potential employers but whether they would take the evidence that's on a piece of paper rather than interviewing them………'
'You've got to be sure of what you're doing with the recognition, why are you recognising this, is it going to be of benefit to potential employers or the kids themselves and if the answer to either of those questions is possibly yes then certainly recognition might be good.'
Model 4
Positive comments:
It was evident that across all of the PT groups there was a general view that this model already existed in their present practice:
'I think that is already happening in terms of social education in the school'
Other PTs thought that there were some good elements in this model:
'I think the idea that through PSE and progress filing they can in some way formalise core skills experience that they are gaining from having a job, I think that would be fair enough but it would need to be done in a way that didn't disadvantage those that didn't have a part-time job.'
'Agree with it in principle to get them thinking about it'
For others the advantage of this model was that it was in their view pupil driven and that it could constitute part of their learning plan.
Negative comments:
For some PTs the problem with this model is that it represents a repetition of existing activities such as progress files or reminds them of previous initiatives that they have tried. Their previous experience leads them to dismiss the idea behind Model 4.
The consequences of this model led some PTs to raise questions about its usefulness. In the eyes of some staff the model was 'airy-fairy' and would result in a paperchase. The effort required for this model to function was further questioned by some PTs because not all pupils would use this system, in fact they claimed the majority would not use it.
Caveats:
Few caveats were expressed. It was noted by one PT that this model already works informally and is evidenced by the guidance and help pupils are given when putting together applications and thinking about their skills. However, for some PTs the problem with this model is that it does not include any formal recognition of the activity.
Model 5
Positive comments:
This model elicited some support from PTs, though some qualified their comments:
'That one does look OK to me, kids already draw on their work experience in applications……… they do write about what they've learnt from their part-time work.'
'I like the idea of a structured reference used by employers. It might be appropriate at later stages of school, S5 or S6, I don't think it would work at S3/S4'
Negative comments:
The majority of negative comments reflect the view of PTs that this model involves repetition of existing activity.
'I think in a sense we've already got Model 5'
'It's done in progress file already'
' CV already shows all employment and educational experiences……… already done by guidance'
In the case of one PT the issue raised with respect to this model was who would be assessing the pupil? Would they be assessing themselves? If so they would need help in tackling this task.
Caveats:
There were no specific caveats identified with this model.
General comments/quotes
As we found with the HTs, the PT groups made a range of comments that were indirectly related to the issues we reviewed above. In this final section on the PTs focus group comments we will summarise some of the key themes and issues.
In some of the focus groups the PTs were asked to indicate their preference for a specific model from the five that were presented. As with HTs a range of views emerged. Some PTs indicated that none of the models worked for them, and in fact disagreed with the principle:
'I wouldn't want my kids having a lot of their school time spent on any of these models at all'
'It's trying to shoehorn a good idea onto a school timetable and it just won't fit.'
'I'd say no, it's more paperwork…who's going to administer this, we're snowed under with paperwork...this[part-time work] is already acknowledged because these children have this recorded in their guidance file that they've done it, it's used for references, for UCAS forms already.'
Others indicated a preference for Model 5:
'Number 5 would get one mark (would be the best) and all the rest would be non-starters'
'I think the least formal one (5) is the best where the kid records what their achievements have been and it's validated by their employer and I think that's something for them.'
'5 is the most workable one that's there.'
'5 then, 4 probably after that because it's along the lines of what we're doing in school.'
It was clear that for many of the PTs Model 3 was problematic. However in one focus group some of the PTs did indicate that it was there preferred option:
'Model 3, then 2, then 5 with reservations about the stage of the pupils then 4 and then 1.'
'3 would be my first choice, 5 second choice, Model 2, 4 then 2.'
This appeared to be based on the opinion:
'I think there would be a lot of support for a programme which gets pupils work conscious and employment conscious and skill conscious in terms of practical skills in the workplace......'
Within one focus group there was a clear view that all of the models were deficient. The argument put forward by the PTs appeared to be tied to a specific concept of childhood. The following quotes reflect this position:
'The very thought scares me, we should be allowing kids to be kids and this is just a lot of…….'
'Rewarding kids for working is just too scary…let them grow as children......'
'They've got the rest of their lives to work...what's the hurry?'
'Please could children be children for some of the time and not some sort of junior adults with pressure on no matter what they do.'
Another theme that emerged was that of vocational routes in education. From some of the comments it appears that the PTs have different views on the vocational-education debate. For some they associated the discussion of part-time work with this debate:
'If the Scottish Executive want to go down the vocational route then they should go down the vocational route and shouldn't be using this as another way of trying to do that, for kids that are not academic then bring more vocational stuff into the classroom get them out on work placements, fund it properly….'
In contrast others expressed a more positive view:
'Personally I think the curriculum is wrong and I think it needs to change and I am 100% behind something that involves the working environment much more in school and much more practical in terms of the curriculum for a lot of pupils.'
A final issue that is worth noting is the extent to which PTs were exercised by the fairness of such a move. The issue of equity was applied at the individual and the regional level. In the former staff were concerned that any move towards recognising part-time work would be unfair on those who did not, or could not find, work:
'I think these [the models] are totally discriminatory in practice, this really annoys me……you are discriminating against the child who cannot get a part-time job.'
'I think the opportunity for kids to use it to their advantage would be useful I think to make it compulsory it would be unfair on the kids who can't manage to get part-time jobs, it would be added imposition it might even make a lot of people who employ kids thinking it's too much like hard work.'
In the latter case the concern expressed by some PTs was that part-time work was not available for school pupils in their area. This view tended to be cited by those in what we might term 'rural' areas:
'……not everyone could get part-time employment within … … the question is, are you willing to travel to …… for part-time employment a couple of hours an evening.'
'The opportunities are just not here and I think in outlying areas we've got to dig in our heels and say no, we do not have the metropolitan opportunities and please don't provide us with a policy that assumes that metropolitan opportunities will be available…central belt values are being imposed on rural environments and they won't fit.'
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