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Smoking in Public Places
A Consultation on Reducing Exposure to Second Hand Smoke
Report of Regional and Area Events
STRANRAER, 19 AUGUST 2004
This meeting had been widely advertised using local media, Scottish Civic Forum (SCF) networking, emails, written invitation letters, phone calls, etc. Eric Davidson from Lockerbie, a member of SCF, assisted John Dowson on the evening.
Around 17 people attended the event with 13 actually signing in. Those present included representatives of the licensed trade, representatives of the NHS, members of the public, and a specialist ventilation engineer.
John Dowson began by introducing the subject, giving background, and laying down SCF ground rules about respecting each other's opinions. He distributed the consultation response papers from the Scottish executive and advised people that they could make an individual response using this form. The meeting would address the 6 questions as laid out in the response form.
Under Question 1, the meeting agreed that more needed to be done to reduce people's exposure to second hand smoke. No one in the meeting argued against this. The following points were made.
Smoking in public places is unfair to people who do not smoke and wish to go out into social places.
This is not just about the licensed trade - it is also about workplaces, supermarkets, etc. One person suggested that all supermarket cafes should be completely non-smoking as they are in the business of selling food and smoke from the café will pass into the shopping mall and be exposed to food products. This means that shoppers cannot be sure that they are purchasing food that has not been contaminated by passive smoking.
Those attending are aware that Westminster and Holyrood are considering legislation under different powers. The question was posed "What if both Parliaments introduce legislation and it is different and has different requirements? How will the government be able to implement the requirements of two different pieces of legislation and how will the public and employers be able to understand the requirements and which legislation takes priority?"
There was considerable discussion about the effectiveness or otherwise of ventilation and filtration systems. The ventilation engineer stated that systems can be installed that are effective in terms of protecting people's health. Others who maintain that no system can eliminate 100% of harmful substances challenged this.
Question 2 asks about supporting a law that would make enclosed public space smoke free.
Will a ban just move the problem elsewhere? To the home perhaps? Will people begin to change their cultural and social patterns
? If they are banned in public places - will they move to private spaces?
Evidence from Ireland has not yet covered a winter period. What will happen in bad weather - people will not be able to go outside quite so easily.
There will be many complaints about people being outside. This could be particularly bad at nightclubs where people pay to gain entry. How will managers control people coming in and out of a club that might accommodate up to 1000 people at a time? Will this cause disturbances on the street?
One mother present stated that she was very worried about large numbers of people smoking in the street. She did not want her kids to see these people smoking in this way and believes it will send out completely the wrong image if we are trying to encourage people to stop smoking. The Scottish Executive should be aware of the potential damage that will be done to education programmes if people are allowed to smoke in the street outside workplaces or licensed premises.
People were also concerned about noise and litter issues outside licensed premises. One person who lives near a nightclub expressed real concern about noise outside his residence if people smoke outside. The club can accommodate around 1000 people till 3 am. At present all noise is contained within the club during these hours but what is going to happen if drunk young people are regularly going in and out of the club to have a cigarette.
He believes that local residents will be totally distressed by this change of behaviour and hopes that the Scottish Executive will look at this potential problem and lay down strict guidelines to control it. It would not be enough to leave it to local licensing boards who have previously shown that they have difficulty controlling this kind of behaviour.
Major concerns were raised about 'policing' any ban. This was not for local authorities and would require some kind of central police force such as that used in Ireland. This will be particularly difficult in rural areas. Resources in rural areas are already overstretched and people doubted that rural areas can be effectively policed. Owners expressed concern that they would have to rely on their staff to police each premises yet their staff would not be the persons fined for failure to comply.
Despite all this many people at the meeting argued that the government should enforce a complete ban. There is a duty to protect workers and many people feel that the licensed trade are opening themselves up to future legislation by their employees against them.
Employees do not have the same choices as customers.
The ventilation engineer reckoned that he could guarantee a 97% clean air standard in licensed premises - others demanded 100%. He argued that 100% was an unachievable target but that 97% was adequate for most industrial situations and cannot see why it should be different for workplaces or licensed premises. If 100% is required in industrial situations then many factories would have to close.
Family use of pubs could increase if smoking is banned. Many families will not go into pubs because of the health issues. Equally many are put off by the image and the smell of people smoking in bars. Banning smoking should help the family use of licensed premises.
Dumfries and Galloway markets itself as "The natural place to live, work, and visit." A ban on smoking could help with that marketing message.
Question 3 asks about potential exemptions.
When does a private home become a workplace? Many people now work in houses and their health is already put at risk in these visits. The health of these workers should also be protected. It is not fair to abandon these workers. The licensed trade demand that their industry should be treated the same as all others and that if they have to make these radical changes then this should also apply to ALL other industries. There should be no exceptions as an exception amounts to accepting that workers can be exposed to passive smoking. If this applies in one workplace then it should apply in all.
Question 4 asks about an extension to the voluntary code.
If a voluntary code is to be pursued, a basic specification should be set down and each premises should be required to meet the standards agreed. It would be like an M.O.T. for premises and any premises failing the test would be liable to shutting down until improvements were made.
This method would also require legislation and thus could hardly be described as 'voluntary.'
Avoiding an outright ban will leave persons with a degree of individual choice, while a ban will effectively remove that choice from the individual. Some people want to retain that choice and do not appreciate the government interfering in their lives claiming that it is an infringement of human rights and an example of the state placing the greater common good in a higher priority than individual human rights. Some people feel that the government is going too far - others disagree.
The licensed trade favours an approach where new legislation would lay down standards that premises would require to meet rather than an outright ban. The trade would accept such legislation willingly and urge their member to work towards this. They are aware that some premises will never be able to meet these standards and make the case that these premises should be allowed to designate themselves as 'smoking places.' This would be clearly signposted on the front doors so that members of the public can make an informed choice as to whether they will enter or not.
Some people were very concerned about people going outside to smoke and leaving their drinks unattended inside.
This could potentially make young girls extremely vulnerable to having their drinks tampered with. The Scottish Executive should issue guidance on this.
If the government do not introduce a complete ban and go for legislated improvements, will they consider making any financial incentives available to trades to improve their properties and install ventilation equipment?
Questions 5 and 6
Whatever action is taken, the government has a responsibility to promote a major education programme (not just in schools) and to give assistance to those who will choose to give up smoking during this period.
During the discussion one person entered the meeting and sat at the back of the hall. It was brought o the attention of the facilitator that this person was smoking. The facilitator asked the person to put out the cigarette for the comfort of others. The person refused to put the cigarette out but did leave the meeting. On his way out he asked the question
. "Why must I give up something that I have done all my life?"
Some people stated that this was an example of why a law is required to force people to put cigarettes out.
People expressed concern that many people are still not being consulted despite the efforts of Scottish Civic Forum. The Scottish Executive should resource an exercise to get out to all groups, such as ethnic minorities. Many Chinese, Indian, and Turkish, restaurants will be seriously affected by this legislation yet very few of them knew anything about the consultation.
Some people called upon the Scottish Executive to mount a well publicised TV debate on the subject.
The licensed trade suggested that if this ban was to be pursued then it should be tried out first in designated pilot areas. Not just imposed across the country.
A final plea was made that the voice of rural Scotland should be listened to. Travel distances are much larger in rural Scotland and social patterns are different also. A ban in a rural village could have significant impact for that village and that business. It is different in the city where there is a critical mass of population and competitive businesses. This is not so in a rural village.
Evaluation sheets were issued and these are available for reference.
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